Are we prisoners of sin

Funny, it seems you do the same thing.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

God gave you a brain to think for yourself...man gave you the Bible to control and repress that ability. God gave you a brain to think for yourself...man gave you the Bible to control and repress that ability. Cedre, the only prisoner here is you, dude. You have been made to feel such a heavy guilt for just being human. You have not allowed yourself an opinion on your own life. You have been indoctrinated into a depressing view of humanity that place a burden from birth on organisms that had no chioce of being born. If this is your belief then you are living a sad life void of any personal love for yourself, and yet you claim that a loving god exists and has you in mind.Religion is a false ideology. God is nothing more than mans inability to explain nature. Break the spell, man. For your own sanity, don't live with this ever lingering guilt that you are not worthy of some invisible mans love. You're better than that as a human being.Just some advise. Hope you don't mind it too much. But since you are preaching to us, I felt you should get some preaching in return.- Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi purpledawn,i know what your opinion is and I dont believe it...its not in harmony with Gods word.

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i know what your opinion is and I dont believe it...its not in harmony with Gods word.

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The doctrine that all are sinners or all are prisoners of sin is not in harmony with God's word either.You don't have to believe me, all you have to do is read the Bible as a whole, not as oneliners to support doctrine, dogma, or tradition.It's all right there in front of you.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

If the Bible itself purports that humans aren't prisoners to sin, what was the point of Christ?

This line of reasoning implies that the Bible is internally consistent. If the Bible was written by one person with a single agenda, or proven to be based on one account of factual events then such an assumption might be warranted. Since the Bible is based on multiple allegorical accounts of events of dubious veracity there is cause for serious doubt of that premise.

I realize this, which was why I was asking for a response from PurpleDawn to support his line of reasoning, which obviously assumes the Bible is internally consistent.The point of my post was to show that it's not.

The Bible doesn't purport anything. It is a compilation of authors.The various writings of the OT that have God speaking or claim that they are passing on God's message (prophets) do not appear to support the doctrine presented by cedre or Peg that all of mankind are prisoners of sin. IOW, no one is able to do right. The various writings of the OT, do not appear to support the doctrine presented by cedre or Peg that God considers all mankind to be sinners from birth, whether any wrong is done or not.I don't assume the Bible is internally consistent. As I've said several times in this thread, the individual author's didn't necessarily write to support another author's position. They wrote for their audience of the time. So when given a verse from Deuteronomy as support for a specific doctrine of today, I read Deuteronomy to see if the author was actually making that point. Each is read as an individual author, which I have also made known several times in this thread.My comment to Peg is a general answer. I've been specific with her and cedre several times throughout this thread and didn't care to type it all again.As for the point of Christ, that would be another thread. The point of this thread was whether we are prisoners of sin.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

With this post I have attempted to present the consistency of the bible’s message as it relates to sin as well as the very important issue of justification and righteousness which some of the posters of this thread have vehemently contended is garnered via the good works that one performs. I have set out to show that this is wrong in sight of what the bible says and that due to our sinful nature inherited from Adam whatever we do is like filthy rags to God

For we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment: and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
(Isa 64:6 ASV)

In order to determine which one of the two above assertions is correct (the one held by my opponents and the one I hold) we need to ask some very relevant questions. The first and perhaps the most important question that could help us establish determine this is the following; does the bible ever record an instance where someone gained the favor and justification of God without adhering to the law? To this question I will quickly reply with a solid yes, this fact is not solely borne out in the bible but in reality as well, as I shall demonstrate in the next few paragraphs. What will be the significance of demonstrating this? Well I regard the significance to be so obvious that it should be understood by even an individual with half a brain, the significance is, if we can find even one example of somebody getting justified aside from the law, it will confirm that adhering to the law is not how to garner God’s approval and forgiveness. And this makes a lot of sense if you come to think of it.Let us start shall we let us start at the very beginning with Abraham. Abraham the father of the modern state of Israel lived at a time when there was no law to break; the law was introduced only later during the time of Moses with the sole purpose to show that we sin. (Gal 3:19).Abraham did not abide by the law before God called him and accepted him, however being the founder of the Jewish nation he too was a Jew and ought to have abided by it, yet he didn’t even live by the ceremonial that Jews were commanded to live by. However there was no law Abraham could live by, but as all flesh is sinful he had to die, the wages of sin is death. However God rescued him just on time was it because Abraham did what the law instructed him to do? What law? There was no law to break Purpledawn the law was given to the budding Israel nation during Moses’ time therefore Abraham did not have it, was Israel chosen and accepted on account of them abiding by the law? No, because Abraham the father of Israel lived in a heathen nation and was not adhering to the law when God accepted him, his sins was forgiven not because he repented remember he wasn’t committed to the law, so on what account was Abraham vindicated and branded as righteous by God? Paul gives the answer right here Here is the ancient passage that Paul is citing Does it make any mention of Abraham being accepted on account of his adherence to the law? The bible is a consistent document when it is read it as it should be as I’m showing here. No one is chosen due to his/her works, but according to his/her faith in God .When Israel was asked to repent repeatedly they were asked to turn back to God, re-put their faith in God, to trust him and as a result of that trust refrain from sin, because sin angers God, therefore you must refrain from sin, because the wages of sin is death, and the law must be fulfilled.More proof that our works have nothing to do with our salvationNow like I have said we are not saved by our adherence to the law salvation is not something that we cultivate by our good works, God’s mercy is the source of salvation, not what we as humans perform. Now please do not misread the bible here, I’m not saying that works become completely irrelevant, by no means. Works are a direct consequence of believing in God. Paul addresses this issue in Romans: First comes faith for without faith no one can please God. We must believe that God is real and that he rewards everyone who searches for him (Heb 11:6). It is the faith that makes us acceptable to God in the first place, why because our works are like filthy rags before God, why because it is impossible for a man to keep the whole law simultaneously? Why because man’s heart is extremely desperate for evil, and out of the heart come evil thoughts, the taking of life, broken faith between the married, unclean desires of the flesh, taking of property, false witness, bitter wordsMat 15:19). And finally because for whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all (Jas 2:10). To make the situation sadder for men is the fact that there exist sins they commit unwittingly, how does one turn from sins he doesn’t know exist, that is why it is impossible to keep the whole law.
Repentance it comes second it is the natural outcome of Acknowledging God as your God and redeemer. This is the formula that has forever been in use by God.This as aside, I repeat we do not gain salvation, by doing good works, Abraham came to God as a sinner and upon his faith was pronounced righteous, he started living by the law only afterwards because God was with Him and gave him the ability to be transformed. But Abraham did sin didn’t he? He did in fact. But I will discuss this point later.For now I want to give more proof that it is not by doing the law that we are saved. The proof is in the scripture let it talk for itself. If we determined our salvation God would not have done all these things. To get a better picture read the entire Romans, I mean it the whole book.Now in conclusion I would like to point out the importance of Jesus’ coming and dying on the cross, if we can be justified based on our works which I already have shown is not possible, but for argument sake if we could be justified or vindicated on account of our adherence to the law or good works Jesus’ death becomes superfluous, vain.But Jesus did die for a purpose, and in the next paragraph I shall reveal the reason for his dying on the cross. This verse is a critical one for the reason that it explains what Jesus had accomplished for us when he died. When God extended his mercy to Abraham, to David, to Moses and you can go on naming endlessly, he put his justice on hold (For the wages of sin is death.
(Rom 6:23)); God preferred mercy over justice for the whole world in fact for it was through the grace Abraham received that the whole world if they too shall believe will be saved.Now what happened when God overlooked justice and opted mercy, what happened was a sin debt built up, a sin debt so huge that no one safe God could pay for in its entirety, only a sinless being like God is capable of paying up for such a huge debt, all the sin that had mounted since its birth all those years ago in the garden with one bite of a forbidden fruit. But you know God didn’t have to die on our behalf, we are the ones in any case who owe the law, God never sinned he doesn’t owe the law a dime, nevertheless he had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.
(Joh 3:16)This is what happened God justified Abraham and Job and Noah on account of their faiths and I’m sure there were more, in other words God extended his underserved kindness and mercy to these people while they were still sinners, in the meantime their sin debt had not been paid off, therefore Jesus had to die, if Jesus had not died, none of these man would have been saved.
This is the truth God said to them trust me, I will take care of you, this trust paid off, and indeed when Jesus came to die and his blood streamed off his dead body their sins were completely washed away and they were made as white as snow, they didn’t deserve this kind of grace no one does, and surely as proven above you can’t earn it either by doing good works. Know you know why Jesus Had to die, and no you know why you have to put your faith in him in order to be saved, without faith it is not possible to please God and Jesus is that object of faith. In conclusion let me ask. Why fight so furiously to deny Christ and his free Gift, why try to earn your way into heaven while the bible says Humanity cannot save itself at least no through works Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

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Purpledawn the law was given to the budding Israel nation during Moses’ time therefore Abraham did not have it, was Israel chosen and accepted on account of them abiding by the law? No, because Abraham the father of Israel lived in a heathen nation and was not adhering to the law when God accepted him, his sins was forgiven not because he repented remember he wasn’t committed to the law, so on what account was Abraham vindicated and branded as righteous by God? Paul gives the answer right here

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Just because this thread hasn't been shut down even though it has run its course, doesn't mean you get to turn it into another discussion. People will be hesitant to respond here since it is off topic.As I've mentioned before, your thread is about whether we are prisoners of sin, not about salvation. Start another thread.Starting the discussion here is unfair because this thread will probably be closed about the time it picks up speed. If you want to discuss the path to salvation, why not start a fresh thread so people will have plenty of room to discuss and not be off topic?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

My latest thread is very relevant it answers your arguments and it demonstrates that the bible is a unity, I have taken all the bible into consideration not just certain verses as you are in the habit of doing. I have shown that everyone has sinned and everyone needs to be saved not through works but by the Grace of God through faith.Plus I have shown that people are slaves to sin accept true followers of Christ those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:4), because they have died to sin and the law and are no longer captives of sin, and moreover I have used the bible to demonstrate this point. You charged that the bible did not teach this well as you have seen from my latest post it does. Please carefully consider and chew over the points I have raised in this very long post of mine before replying I have spent quite some time in its compilation.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

What guilt I have no guilt I'm not a prisoner of sin, I have been set free from the law of sin and death. I feel liberated, my sins known or unknown are covered, the feeling is indescribable, I have been justified through Christ, I'm righteous God is vindicated me. How I hope you would let yourself experience the same joy that I experience every single day, not like what many people believe Christianity is not a set of laws, Christianity is a freedom from the two greatest chains SIN and DEATH.

I believe we are now done with this thread. Cedre finally accepted what we've been saying. We can all return to our previously scheduled programming.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Hopefully they will close this thread soon.

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Plus I have shown that people are slaves to sin accept true followers of Christ those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:4), because they have died to sin and the law and are no longer captives of sin, and moreover I have used the bible to demonstrate this point.

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No you didn't. But then again you have refused to even consider any other arguments though out this thread. You have been shown repeatedly that your arguments are lame and illogical. So I will just chock this up to the fact that I consider you delusional.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts