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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 46 of 327 (506886)
04-30-2009 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
04-30-2009 7:19 AM


Re: Basic Math
I get carried away sometimes
But at least I have no lack of passion! Just a lack of intelligence... it's a dangerous combination

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 04-30-2009 7:19 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 47 of 327 (506887)
04-30-2009 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by PaulK
04-29-2009 7:49 AM


PaulK writes:
This is only one possible interpretation. There are several other possible dates - and the 20th year of Artaxerxes is 445 BC.
you can work out wen the 20th year of Artaxerxes, by going back to the end of the reign of his father Xerxes. He died toward the end of 475BCE. Artaxerxes’ would have taken over his thrown in the same year
so 475 - 20 = 455

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2009 7:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2009 7:40 AM Peg has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 48 of 327 (506888)
04-30-2009 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by kbertsche
04-30-2009 1:21 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant
The author of "The Message" Bible seems to add quite a bit to the text.
quote:
Yes, this would be a problem for someone who takes the text so literally that he ignores idioms and figures of speech.
Except that the the NT writers who quote Isaiah 53 appear to be using it literally.
I agree that Isaiah wrote in a poetic style, and this style of writing is creative and not necessarily literal. If Isaiah's writing is full of idioms and figures of speech of the time, that shows me that the prophecy was not meant for the distant future. Idioms and figures of speech get lost over time and over 700 years is a very long time. Not to mention that OT Hebrew is a dead language. God would know that.
Also if we accept that Isaiah uses idioms and figures of speech, then that has to be taken into account for the whole writing, not just the difficult parts.
quote:
But I think the explanation in the excellent notes of the NET Bible (net.bible.org) is more likely:
The idiomatic and stereotypical language emphasizes the servant’s restoration to divine favor. Having numerous descendants and living a long life are standard signs of divine blessing. See Job 42:13—16.

Your quote from the NET Bible doesn't really make the verse we're discussing fit Jesus either. The NT writers did not intimate that Jesus ever fell from God's favor.
Also the verse in Job doesn't really show me that Isaiah was using an idiom or figure of speech in verse 10.
Unfortunately it is hard for us to determine if our translations have already taken into account the idioms and figures of speech.
Young's Literal Translation: And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
Seed is already a creative way of referring to children and prolonging days is a creative way of saying living longer. We also have the personification of the soul. Obviously a soul can't make an offering. So our translations may have already taken into account Isaiah's creative use of language. Unfortunately all we have are translations.
Are there any other resources that show this verse is a figure of speech and not to be taken at face value, meaning actual children of his loin?
ABE: Figuratively, Isaiah could be talking about the nation of Israel.
Edited by purpledawn, : Added thought.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by kbertsche, posted 04-30-2009 1:21 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 49 of 327 (506889)
04-30-2009 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Peg
04-30-2009 7:36 AM


quote:
you can work out wen the 20th year of Artaxerxes, by going back to the end of the reign of his father Xerxes. He died toward the end of 475 BCE
That's 465 BC.
Wikipedia
answers.com
Encyclopedia Britannica
465 - 20 = 445.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Peg, posted 04-30-2009 7:36 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 50 of 327 (506891)
04-30-2009 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by bluescat48
04-29-2009 9:33 AM


bluescat48 writes:
That would be an assumption that Christ was born right at the BCE CE which has shown to be incorrect. Even back in the middle ages it was determined that Christ was born somewhere between 3 BCE & 13 BCE. If one accepts Matthew's story of the Magi, than Christ would have to have been born prior to 6 BCE since that is the date of Herod's death.
Just to say that Christ was born the same year that places the Crucifixion no later than 27 CE.
I said that christ was 'Baptized' in 29ce, not 'born' then.
You are correct to say that he was born much earlier....he was actually born Sept/Oct 2BCE...no exact date is known but he was 30yrs old when he was baptized by John.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by bluescat48, posted 04-29-2009 9:33 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by bluescat48, posted 04-30-2009 9:53 AM Peg has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 51 of 327 (506892)
04-30-2009 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by John 10:10
04-30-2009 7:07 AM


Re: Offspring and eternal life
quote:
Since you do not believe Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of Isaiah 53 concerning "seeing His descendants and giving them long life," the verses in John declare Jesus gives eternal life to those who are born into the kingdom of God.
But those are not children of his loin, his seed. How does the verse concerning the servants seed support the idea of symbolic "birth" into God's kingdom or eternal life after physical death? That's assuming quite a lot. What translation tells you he will give his descendants long life?
I think the use of the word seed is very specific, even creatively, and speaks of direct descendants, the passing of sperm, etc. I don't feel it means figuratively just anyone who joins the club.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by John 10:10, posted 04-30-2009 7:07 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Peg, posted 04-30-2009 9:13 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 76 by John 10:10, posted 04-30-2009 9:18 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 101 by Peg, posted 05-02-2009 1:49 AM purpledawn has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 52 of 327 (506894)
04-30-2009 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
04-30-2009 7:15 AM


quote:
Its not surprising at all. According to the "Verse Account of Nabonidus" Belshazzar held a kingly position at Babylon and explains the manner of his becoming coregent with Nabonidus. While Nabonidus was away on a military trip the accounts says that 'Belshazzar was appointed coregent and placed in the position of King'
But what about when Nabonidus came back or before he want away ? And why not mention that Belshazzar was only co-regent ? Why describe Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar when he was the son of Nabonidus ?
quote:
Actually the account in Daniel shows that Belshazzar was the second highest ruler in the kingdom because Belshazzar offered Daniel the 'Third Highest Positon' in the kingdom if he could interpret the writing on the wall. This is in line with Belshazzar having kingly authority and rightly called king.
It doesn't show that Belshazzar was only the second most powerful person, and it calls him king anyway.
quote:
not if the 'Prince of Princes' had not arrived. that part of the prophecy is still future.
According to Daniel 8 the "Prince of Princes" (8:25) is supposed to be around in the "latter days" of the Diadochi states (8:21-23), If he didn't turn up then it doesn't mean that the prophecy refers to the future - it means that the prophecy FAILED.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Peg, posted 04-30-2009 7:15 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Peg, posted 04-30-2009 9:24 AM PaulK has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 53 of 327 (506897)
04-30-2009 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by PaulK
04-30-2009 7:40 AM


i agree that 476/465 is a conflict among different sources but 475 bce accepted too for various reasons.
quote:
Concerning the time when Xerxes died and Artaxerxes ascended the throne, M.de Koutorga wrote: "We have seen that, according to the chronology of Thucydides, Xerxes died towards the end of the year 475B.C.E., and that, according to the same historian, Themistocles arrived in Asia Minor shortly after the coming to the throne of Artaxerxes Longimanus." Mmoires prsents par divers savants l'Acadmie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres de l'Institut Imprial de France, first series, Vol. VI, second part, Paris, 1864, p. 147.
As further support of this, E.Levesque noted the following: "Therefore it is necessary, according to the Alexandrian Chronicle, to place Xerxes' death in 475B.C.E., after eleven years of reign. The historian Justin, III, 1, confirms this chronicle and the assertions of Thucydides. According to him, at the time of Xerxes' murder, Artaxerxes, his son, was but a child, puer [a boy], which is true if Xerxes died in 475. Artaxerxes was then 16 years old, whereas in 465 he would have been twenty-six years old, which would not justify anymore Justin’s expression. According to this chronology, since Artaxerxes began to reign in 475, the 20th year of his reign proves to be in 455 and not in 445 as it is said quite commonly."Revue apologtique, Paris, Vol. 68, 1939, p. 94.

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 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2009 7:40 AM PaulK has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 54 of 327 (506898)
04-30-2009 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by purpledawn
04-29-2009 3:10 PM


Re: Isaiah 54 - The Suffering Servant
purpledawn writes:
No matter what translation I read, offspring and a prolonged life is part of the prophecy.
didnt Jesus call his followers his 'children'?
and isnt he called their 'father'?
and wasnt he resurrected again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 04-29-2009 3:10 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 04-30-2009 9:26 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 55 of 327 (506899)
04-30-2009 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
04-30-2009 7:49 AM


Re: Offspring and eternal life
purpledawn writes:
I think the use of the word seed is very specific, even creatively, and speaks of direct descendants, the passing of sperm, etc. I don't feel it means figuratively just anyone who joins the club.
thats not necessarily true...there are many examples where an indirect decedent is called a 'seed' and where a direct decendent is NOT called a seed
quote:
Gal 3:29Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise"
Romans 9:6"...For not all who [spring] from Israel are really 'Israel' 7Neither because they are Abraham's seed are they all children"
John 8:39"In answer they said to him: "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them: "If YOU are Abraham's children, do the works of Abraham...your are from your father the devil..."
Matt 21:43"This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom (promised to Abraham's seed) of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits "

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by purpledawn, posted 04-30-2009 7:49 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 56 of 327 (506903)
04-30-2009 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by PaulK
04-30-2009 7:55 AM


PaulK writes:
But what about when Nabonidus came back or before he want away ? And why not mention that Belshazzar was only co-regent ? Why describe Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar when he was the son of Nabonidus
It may be that Nebuchadnezzar was simply the 'father' of Belshazzar as to the throne, Nebuchadnezzar being a royal predecessor. In a similar manner, the Assyrians used the expression 'son of Omri' to denote a successor of Omri. Also the book Nabonidus and Belshazzar (by R.P. Dougherty, 1929) reasons that it is probable that Belshazzar's mother was Nitocris and that she was a daughter of Nebuchadnezzar (II). That really would make Nebuchadnezzar the grandfather of Belshazzar.
Paulk writes:
It doesn't show that Belshazzar was only the second most powerful person, and it calls him king anyway.
there are many examples of Co-Regencies in the ancient world...its not unusual to find father and sons ruling together as one.
PaulK writes:
According to Daniel 8 the "Prince of Princes" (8:25) is supposed to be around in the "latter days" of the Diadochi states (8:21-23), If he didn't turn up then it doesn't mean that the prophecy refers to the future - it means that the prophecy FAILED.
if it hasnt happened yet, that doesnt mean that it has failed, that just means it hasnt happened yet and its is still 'for the time of the end'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2009 7:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2009 9:51 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 57 of 327 (506904)
04-30-2009 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Stile
04-30-2009 7:21 AM


Re: Basic Math
Stile writes:
I get carried away sometimes
But at least I have no lack of passion! Just a lack of intelligence... it's a dangerous combination
Not at all
it shows that you've at least thought about it...that takes intelligence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Stile, posted 04-30-2009 7:21 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 58 of 327 (506905)
04-30-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Peg
04-30-2009 8:54 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant
Please also read Message 48 and Message 51 before responding.
Show that Isaiah meant followers of a messiah as opposed to legal children.
Suffering Servant-Jewish Interpretation
So, seeing seed or seeing sons or seeing children are idiomatic expressions used in the Hebrew Bible to describe the experience of seeing one's own family propagate for one or more generations.
Actually God is called father, not Jesus and we are considered God's children, not children of Jesus.
Calling God Father: Children is one of Jesus’ favorite titles for His followers, regardless of their age. He calls us children, not out of a desire to be quaint but to point to a fundamental truth about our identity in relation to God the Father. We are children of the Father because He created us, but even more because He gave us new birth through water and the Holy Spirit in the Sacrament of Baptism.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Peg, posted 04-30-2009 8:54 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 04-30-2009 9:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 59 of 327 (506906)
04-30-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by purpledawn
04-30-2009 9:26 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant
purpledawn writes:
Actually God is called father, not Jesus and we are considered God's children, not children of Jesus.
Isaiah 9:6 "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end..."
this is a messianic prophecy...the messiah (Jesus) would fulfill all these roles. It does not mean that he has taken the place of God, for even he says that he is not the Almighty God. But he has been placed in a position of a god to us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 04-30-2009 9:26 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 327 (506908)
04-30-2009 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Peg
04-30-2009 9:32 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant
Show me that the followers of Jesus referred to him as father.
Show me that the majority of Christians refer to Jesus as father.
I have never heard Jesus referred to as Eternal Father.
Reality does not support your contention.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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