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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 136 of 327 (507368)
05-04-2009 10:35 AM


You have to use multiple contortions and manipulations to use the writings of the Rabbis to support your contention that Jesus is the fulfillment of this prophecy.
If the New Testament as the oracles of God says that Jesus was refered to in Isaiah 53, that is the end of the matter.
Theodoric believes it or Theodoric doesn't. When an explicit claim is made that some passages refer to Christ which are in the Old Testament, if he doesn't accept that, what can you do for him?
If there is no explicit claim perhaps there is room for some debate. Otherwise, people just choose not to believe what the oracles of God told us.
I think that Joseph is definitely a type of Christ. The New Testament does not say that anywhere. To convince someone that it must be so I would argue about the similarities of what happened to Joseph as compared to what happened to Jesus. And some things yet to happen concerning Jesus, I would add.
With Isaiah 53 there is not need for speculation of this kind. The end of the matter is that the NT said Jesus was the referant.

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Granny Magda, posted 05-04-2009 11:14 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 3:54 PM jaywill has replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 137 of 327 (507373)
05-04-2009 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jaywill
05-04-2009 10:35 AM


Circular Reasoning
Hi jaywill,
quote:
If the New Testament as the oracles of God...
And there lies your problem. How do we know that the Bible is "the oracle of God"? Peg suggests that we can place our faith in the Bible because of fulfilled prophecy. If we know that the prophecy has been fulfilled because it says so in the Bible, and we know that the Bible is true because of fulfilled prophecy, we are left with nothing but circular reasoning.
Evidence for biblical veracity which itself depends upon belief in the Bible as a prerequisite is worthless.
quote:
that is the end of the matter.
If you are really so lacking in curiosity, then there is little point in your debating the issue. Indeed, there can be no genuine debate with such an attitude.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 10:35 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 9:04 PM Granny Magda has not replied
 Message 155 by Peg, posted 05-05-2009 7:30 AM Granny Magda has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 138 of 327 (507375)
05-04-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Peg
05-04-2009 6:20 AM


Re: Offspring and eternal life
quote:
You havnt shown how the bible supports your position though.
and as I said, the source you use is an anti messiah site so of course they deny that it is a messianic prophecy.
You and I are discussing the use of the word seed. It isn't an anti-messiah site. Be precise, it's a Jewish site. Just because they don't accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, doesn't mean they are anti-messiah.
quote:
But there is evidence that Jews of the 1st century did believe Isaiah 53 was a messianic prophecy. In one rendering of Isaiah 52:13, the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel (1CE), as translated by J. F. Stenning, states: "Behold, my servant, the Anointed One (the Messiah), shall prosper."
Another one, the Babylonian Talmud (c.3 CE) says: "The Messiahwhat is his name?..." (Sanhedrin 98b)
According to this article the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel was written in the 2nd Century (101-200). I'm not necessarily arguing that Isaiah 53 is or isn't a messianic prophecy. I'm arguing that if it is a messianic prophecy, Jesus didn't fit the prophecy. IOW, this prophecy wasn't fulfilled through what we supposedly know of Jesus.
Realistically, we don't have the original Hebrew manuscript. The original language is a dead language. The writing has had changes made by both sides and translated by many on both sides to suit religious beliefs. We don't have a totally unadulterated version, so we can only speculate about what Isaiah was saying to his audience.
quote:
The disciples of Jesus, who were Jews themselves, also believed it to be a Messianic prophecy and applied it to Jesus.
In Acts 8:28 is the account about Philip teaching an Ethiopian man about the identity of the 'servant' of Isaiah 53 at Gods direction. If God believes that Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy, then i think we can trust it it really is seeing he is the author.
Actually this story is a bit fishy. Notice after the eunuch was baptized Philip literally disappeared!
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
As I stated in another post, the author didn't have Philip answer the question directly. The author of Acts wasn't a disciple, wasn't an eyewitness by his own admission and was supposedly written after the destruction of the Temple (80-130). Philip was supposedly crucified about 54CE. The author isn't really in a position to know what the original disciples believed personally.
quote:
Im saying its a 'spiritual' offspring as opposed to 'physical' offspring, which is what you are trying to apply.
I understand that you are saying it is spiritual offspring or followers. But there doesn't seem to be any support for that idea at the time of Isaiah.
quote:
The servant was put to death according to Isaiah. So the fact that he is able to 'see his offspring' and 'live prolonged days' must be not in a physical sense but in a spiritual sense. And if you consider what happened to Jesus, it is easy to apply it to him.
Isaiah understand resurrection as a physical resurrection or rebirth. also read Ezekiel 37.
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead will come back to life; your corpses will rise up. Wake up and shout joyfully, you who live in the ground! For you will grow like plants drenched with the morning dew, and the earth will bring forth its dead spirits.
If you take the suffering servant as a prophecy, the servant dies and is physically resurrected. This means he is alive again and fully human and able to marry, have children, reflect on his work, and divide the spoils of his victory.
The poem does not lead one to believe that the "messiah" is to die, come back to life and then ascend.
quote:
Shortly after gathering a small group of disciples, Jesus was put to death, but he was resurrected by God and given eternal life in Gods Kingdom. Today he is seeing his descendants in the form of the millions of Christian disciples who have put faith in him. Thats how one can have 'seed' or 'descendants' in a spiritual sense. Its as Paul said in Galatians 3:26
"29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise"
The 'seed' in this verse is not speaking of literal offspring, but spiritual offspring...those with faith in Jesus are considered Jesus spiritual offspring.
I already addressed that in Message 106.
PurpleDawn writes:
Paul uses the phrase "Abraham's seed" to creatively refer to Israel or Jews. (Romans 9:6 and Galatians 3:29) Paul is trying to reason that even gentiles are heirs to the promises to Abraham through "adoption". It doesn't help us understand what Isaiah meant.
The author of John uses it the same way. The transliterated Greek word for descendants is sperma or seed.
John 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him...
33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants ...
34 Jesus replied ...
37 I know you are Abraham's descendants.
I'm not typing the whole thing because I'm sure you have a Bible and can read all of it.
Paul's use of the phrase Abraham's seed cannot be used to support Isaiah's use of the word seed 700 years earlier. Paul is not using the word seed by itself.
Today the English word grass is used to refer to marijuana. The first use was in 1938. We can't use that meaning to help interpret writings done before 1938. Otherwise we could have some interesting script.
Genesis 1:11
And God said, Let the earth bring forth marijuana (grass), ...
Job 6:25
Doth the wild ass bray when he hath marijuana (grass)?
To show me that the Hebrew word used for seed is not used by Isaiah to mean physical offspring, you would need to show that other authors of the OT or authors contemporary to Isaiah have used it otherwise. Uses of the word seed in the NT cannot tell us that Isaiah meant something other than physical children/descendants.
You said it yourself. Seed is used to mean descendants.
Descendants are physical not spiritual.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Peg, posted 05-04-2009 6:20 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Peg, posted 05-05-2009 7:46 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 139 of 327 (507376)
05-04-2009 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Peg
05-04-2009 6:57 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 - Verse 1 and 2
quote:
Again here is another figurative expression. Isaiah's words refer to the humiliation that Jesus experienced. When he exposed the religious leaders of his day as hypocrites, liars, and murderers; and they responded by reviling him and accusing him of being a lawbreaker, a blasphemer, a deceiver and a seditionist against Rome. Their false accusations painted a distorted picture of who Jesus was and what he stood for.
Isaiah can be figurative but not creative, is that it? Show me that Isaiah meant the words as figurative in the way that you are interpreting the words. The plain reading of the NT texts do not support what you're saying. You're creating a picture, not looking at the real picture.
ABE: I think 52:14-15 is just a way to say he was ugly. I am curious though, if all this is in the future who is Isaiah talking to when he states:
(just as many were horrified by the sight of you)
he was so disfigured he no longer looked like a man
Whose the You? kbertsche and I are using the NETBible
quote:
JOhn 16:33 "I have said these things to YOU that by means of me YOU may have peace. In the world YOU are having tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world" John 14:30 " I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world (the devil) is coming. And he has no hold on me"
By his integrity he completely defeated Satan the devil who attempted to get Jesus to be disloyal to God. This was Gods strong arm in action...the fact that Jesus stood firm against all that the devil threw at him, even in the reality of death. So Jesus was able to say he conquered the world.
Sorry, Isaiah again doesn't seem to be speaking of a spiritual battle, but a physical one. Show me that his words depict a spiritual battle and not physical. What makes it spiritual aside from you.
Edited by purpledawn, : Added sentence. Clarified statements.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Peg, posted 05-04-2009 6:57 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 9:22 PM purpledawn has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 140 of 327 (507394)
05-04-2009 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jaywill
05-04-2009 10:35 AM


The object of the thread was to show proof of biblical prophecy fulfilled.
quote:
If the New Testament as the oracles of God says that Jesus was refered to in Isaiah 53, that is the end of the matter.
Is not proof it is faith.
quote:
Theodoric believes it or Theodoric doesn't. When an explicit claim is made that some passages refer to Christ which are in the Old Testament, if he doesn't accept that, what can you do for him?
Believe me, the last thing I want is for something to be done for me.
Typical christian prattle. You have no argument so resort to condescension.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 10:35 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 9:52 PM Theodoric has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 141 of 327 (507418)
05-04-2009 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Granny Magda
05-04-2009 11:14 AM


Re: Circular Reasoning
And there lies your problem. How do we know that the Bible is "the oracle of God"? Peg suggests that we can place our faith in the Bible because of fulfilled prophecy.
I see.
But I do not see where my "problem" is. I agree with Peg that fulfilled prophecy is one factor which confirms that I am on the right track to believe the Bible.
Of course my concept of prophecy includes more than prediction of great historical events. My view would also include rather personal fulfilled promises of the Bible.
For example the Bible says that the Lord is rich to all who call upon Him.
"For everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all whjo call upon Him.
For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:11-13)
Don't regard "saved" there as only refering to eternal redemption. It can be very practical in the daily human life too. I need saving from many things now.
I was experiencing very bad nightmares in my past. Possibly these were due to involvement in occult practices. I don't know for sure. But I know that these were very vivid and evil nightmares.
At there darkest point when I felt I would be crushed or swallowed by something demonic I would, in my sleep, call in my mind on the name of Jesus. Just calling "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" delivered me from those pernicious dreams. The dark and evil things would withdraw and I would awake in great peace.
I experienced that the Lord Jesus was indeed rich to all who called upon Him.
This has by no means been limited to dreamlife. In my waking hours one time I had a toothache so bad that the whole half of my body was tense with trying to contain the pain. It came and went. When the wave of pain came no one could help me. They left the room leaving me to myself.
Because only God could help I would call "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus ..." The pain did not go away. However, a great supporting peace rose up deep within me which enabled me not endure.
I remember being so surprised that I thought to myself "My, a toothache was never so enjoyable." I mean it. It was not the toothache pain which went away. But I found something like a deeper chamber in my being where I could go and hide. There there was a deep enjoyment of God's Spirit. Outside in the outer chamber of my being was a bad toothache pain.
So when I read that the Lord is rich to all who call upon Him or that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, I know that I have experienced that. That is fulfilled prophetic utterance to me.
This kind of prophecy lets me know that I am on the right track to believe in the Bible.
If we know that the prophecy has been fulfilled because it says so in the Bible, and we know that the Bible is true because of fulfilled prophecy, we are left with nothing but circular reasoning.
I see now more the subject matter of the thread. I agree.
About circular reasoning:
God says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. So I think there is a kind of circularity in reality which is valid. God is the ground of being and the ultimate fulfillment of history. That's kind of circular.
Secondly, I have a suspicion that most world views of any type have some degree of circular reasoning in them. I think if you examine your own world view I wager that you would discover some circular reasoning with it also. Yet I doubt that you regard it as worthless.
And thirdly, even science is based on philosophical presuppositions which themselves cannot be proved by the scientific method. The scientific method assumes these things as a foundation. Science must assume certain basic things which themselves cannot be proved by scientific experiment. We probably wouldn't say that because of that the scientific method is worthless.
Forthly, the Bible contains a record of people who believed the Scriptures because of the fulfillment of prophecy. As well as it contains instances of people who did not believe it because they failed to see fulfillment of prophecy. I don't think it is wise to say that disbelief because of failure to see fulfillment is valid but belief because of fulfillment is invalid.
So I think both experiences are valid. Prophecy is not the only grounds upon which to believe the Bible. It is an additional means.
Evidence for biblical veracity which itself depends upon belief in the Bible as a prerequisite is worthless.
It has not proved to be "worthless" to millions of us. Then again we do not regard the Bible as only existing to entertain our intellectual curiosity.
Changed lives for the much better has not been "worthless" to quite a few people I know who have placed trust in the Bible as God's revelation.
One of the greatest prophecies in the New Testament is Jesus saying that He would build His church and that the gates of Hades would not prevail against it.
From within and from without tremendous forces have acted to destroy the Christian church for 2,000 years. I said from outside persecution and inside corruption. She continues to be built.
As an official warned his king when he thought to launch a persecution against the Christians "Sier, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."
This prophecy persuades me that we are on the right track to believe the Bible.
If you are really so lacking in curiosity, then there is little point in your debating the issue. Indeed, there can be no genuine debate with such an attitude.
I am not lacking in curiosity at all. I have quite a few good questions about what I read in the Bible. I study it constantly.
Perhaps you mistake unbelief and doubt for curiosity. There are some matters that I have graduated from unbelief and doubt. That does not mean I have no curiosity.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Granny Magda, posted 05-04-2009 11:14 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Modulous, posted 05-04-2009 10:43 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 142 of 327 (507419)
05-04-2009 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by purpledawn
05-04-2009 12:00 PM


Re: Isaiah 53 - Verse 1 and 2
Sorry, Isaiah again doesn't seem to be speaking of a spiritual battle, but a physical one. Show me that his words depict a spiritual battle and not physical. What makes it spiritual aside from you.
If you are refering to Isaiah 53 there certainly is the implication of spiritual battle.
"We all like sheep have gone astray; Each to his own way."
This is going astray from God. God is intrinsically a spiritual matter. This is true in the Old Testament as well as in the New.
Now where is the "battle"? "Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great. He will divide the spoil with the strong." (v.12)
This clearly a military type of word picture. "By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servvant, will make the many righteous, and He will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great, And He will divide the spoil with the Strong; Because He poured out His life unto death."
The Suffering Servant divides the spoils of this "warfare" over men with God "the Strong" and co-partake of the benefits of victory with God "the Great".
So I think spiritual warefare is definitely indicated in Isaiah 53.
You were talking about Isaiah 53 weren't you?
God is about securing spiritual spoils including justified and righteous human beings. The spoils will He divide with His Suffering Servant because of His act in securing these "spoils" of spiritual and moral war.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 05-04-2009 12:00 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by purpledawn, posted 05-05-2009 6:32 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 143 of 327 (507421)
05-04-2009 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Theodoric
05-04-2009 3:54 PM


The object of the thread was to show proof of biblical prophecy fulfilled.
I see your point.
If the New Testament as the oracles of God says that Jesus was refered to in Isaiah 53, that is the end of the matter.
Is not proof it is faith.
Yes that is faith.
And one of the reasons for this faith is the fulfillment of prophecy.
When Jesus rose He explained to the doubting disciples that all these things happened according to the Scripture prophecy.
The fulfillment of the prophecies was for them confirming proof that they were on the right track to believe in Christ.
Believe me, the last thing I want is for something to be done for me.
Typical christian prattle. You have no argument so resort to condescension
I see better the nature of the thread.
But one has to make a decision eventually to decide that something has been proved.
Can you prove that the sun is not circling around the earth? I could object to your proof because I don't think you have total proof that the planet earth is not standing perfectly still.
Can you prove that the earth is not the only object in the universe standing perfectly in the same place?
So one can often continue to move the goal post and say that something has not been proved.
Sometimes it is a matter of "How much proof is proof"?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 3:54 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 9:57 PM jaywill has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 144 of 327 (507422)
05-04-2009 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by jaywill
05-04-2009 9:52 PM


quote:
But one has to make a decision eventually to decide that something has been proved.
Not if proof has not been given. That would be silly.
Various posters have rebutted your explanations for Isaiah. Therefore, you resorted to the old "if you accept Jesus you will see the proof" BS.
I guess none of us should be surprised.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 9:52 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 10:10 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 05-05-2009 5:38 AM Theodoric has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 145 of 327 (507423)
05-04-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Theodoric
05-04-2009 9:57 PM


Not if proof has not been given. That would be silly.
Various posters have rebutted your explanations for Isaiah. Therefore, you resorted to the old "if you accept Jesus you will see the proof" BS.
I guess none of us should be surprised.
Not surprised that you didn't take up the challenge to "prove" a generally accepted scientific concept of a heliocentric solarsystem.
Neither can you really prove it.
The show of objectivity on your part doesn't impress me either.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 9:57 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 10:23 PM jaywill has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 146 of 327 (507424)
05-04-2009 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jaywill
05-04-2009 10:10 PM


quote:
Not surprised that you didn't take up the challenge to "prove" a generally accepted scientific concept of a heliocentric solarsystem.
Not really on topic is it?
Start a new thread and we can hash it out.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 10:10 PM jaywill has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 147 of 327 (507426)
05-04-2009 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
05-04-2009 9:04 PM


The joy of prophecy
I experienced that the Lord Jesus was indeed rich to all who called upon Him.
No you didn't. You recount your personal experience, and try to suggest that your experience is universal. This is like me saying 'I enjoyed the taste of Spinach therefore I have experienced that Spinach tastes good to all who eat it'.
You have merely interpreted a subjective experience as if it represented a universal and absolute truth for all. It's an easy mistake to make, and it is precisely the mistake people make when they think that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his prophet or that Jesus Christ is God because "I have experienced that this is the case".
So when I read that the Lord is rich to all who call upon Him or that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, I know that I have experienced that. That is fulfilled prophetic utterance to me.
And yet you discount the fact that the Lord is as ashes and dust when I call upon him. This shows the prophecy as false, but you will not accept that, nor the testimony of thousands of others who have experienced likewise. This is classic prophecy interpretation: ignore the problems, focus on the 'hits'. It's like going to see a psychic or reading a horoscope or casting I Ching or doing a Ouija board.
From within and from without tremendous forces have acted to destroy the Christian church for 2,000 years. I said from outside persecution and inside corruption. She continues to be built..... This prophecy persuades me that we are on the right track to believe the Bible.
Wonderfully self-fulfilling. As long as one person (you for example) believe the Bible, you could interpret this prophecy as being true.
And yet, it feels deeply compelling to you. This is the true power of prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2009 9:04 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jaywill, posted 05-05-2009 6:21 AM Modulous has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 148 of 327 (507429)
05-05-2009 1:45 AM


The failure of Prophecy
Of the three main examples offered so far not one is a clear success.
Daniel 8 places the End Times in the Hellenistic era, and thus clearly failed.
Daniel 9 also requires twisting to "fit" the supposed fulfilment - as well as an interpretation that contradicts Daniel 8.
Isaiah 53 contains almost no confirmable details - and requires some questionable readings.
Successful prophecies can only be a valid reason for believing in the Bible if there are rationally convincing prophecies. None of the ones offered here come close - in fact the claims of success are themselves faith-driven.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 149 of 327 (507433)
05-05-2009 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Theodoric
05-04-2009 9:57 PM


Various posters have rebutted your explanations for Isaiah.
"Various" posters who disbelieve that Isaiah refered to Christ are just examples of various ones to whom the report was made who did not believe.
As the prophet Isaiah begins the chapter:
"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" (Isa. 53:1)
Your "various" posters are just among the many and various disbelieving hearers of the prophet's prophecy. Big deal.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 9:57 PM Theodoric has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 150 of 327 (507435)
05-05-2009 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Modulous
05-04-2009 10:43 PM


Re: The joy of prophecy
No you didn't. You recount your personal experience, and try to suggest that your experience is universal.
Yes I did. And yes I do.
You've never tried to call out to the Person of Christ perhaps. So you don't know that you will not have the same kind of experience.
In case you did not know, there are truths which are personal and universal. Timing is not the same for everyone though.
This is like me saying 'I enjoyed the taste of Spinach therefore I have experienced that Spinach tastes good to all who eat it'.
I think it is more like saying Spinach is good for human food. Whether you have a personal taste for Spinach is another story. Though you may turn your nose up at Spinach it is still good for food.
"Just taste and see that the Lord is good."
Refusing to taste doesn't prove that there is no Lord or that He is not good to those who are willing to taste.
You have merely interpreted a subjective experience as if it represented a universal and absolute truth for all.
Well, it is true that in this stage of history God is pleased to reveal Himself at the personal level. After all that is the nature of God as the center of each individual human's life.
You can't say that because it was personal it is not universal truth. At best you can take an Agnostic approach. "I don't know of God. Maybe someone else knows of God."
It's an easy mistake to make, and it is precisely the mistake people make when they think that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his prophet or that Jesus Christ is God because "I have experienced that this is the case".
It is true that one could be mistaken. Of course Muslims do not proport to know God on a personal level. Ask them.
To the Muslim the concept of Allah is firmly held by them. That is true. I have yet to meet one who speaks of Allah as having come into them so as to be untimately and subjectively experienced. Allah is to be obeyed. But they don't really talk about a subjective and initimate contact with Allah.
Christ on the other hand speaks of He and the Father coming to make an abode with the lover of Christ - (And I emphasize a lover)
"Judas, not Isacariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are about to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world?
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to Him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Now I think that John was keen to include the record of this exchange. Judas's question is very good as He understood Christ's teaching that He would manifest Himself to His disciples while the world at large would not experience this manifestation.
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (v.21)
Judas asks then, How will Jesus manifest Himself to His followers yet not to the world? And Jesus responds with verse 23 which says that to His lovers He and the Father will come to them and make an abode with them.
You will not find a parallel teaching of this indwelling in Islam. And it is possible because of the main subject of the 14th chapter of John, the coming of the Spirit of reality, the Another Comforter, the Holy Spirit Whom God will dispense into the lovers of Christ.
How do you know that it is not a matter of timing? That is you have not yet become a lover of Christ and the Father and Son have not yet come to make an abode with you?
So when I read that the Lord is rich to all who call upon Him or that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, I know that I have experienced that. That is fulfilled prophetic utterance to me.
And yet you discount the fact that the Lord is as ashes and dust when I call upon him.
You don't call because you start out with the presupposition that He is ashes and dust.
There is a class of things which you have to first believe in order to experience. Many people lift of the name of Jesus Christ as simply a two part curse word. That is not calling on the name of the Lord.
And many will say "Lord, Lord" who may not enter into the kingdom of God. So glibly lifting up the name of God in vain is not what Romans is talking about.
But don't be discouraged. IF you call on the name of the Lord, as meaning you intend to receive Jesus as your Lord, YOU are no longer on the throne, but you receive Him as the Lord - then He will also become rich to you too.
How do you feel about this? God says that your sins have made a separation between you and your God:
"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.
But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hide His face from you." (Isaiah 59:1,2)
If your reaction is "I have not sinned. I do not need the Lord to remove the guilt of my sins. I don't even believe there is a God." That could be a problem that Christ is not real to you subjectively.
Anyway, calling on the Lord may include for you the acknowledgment in your calling that your sins have made a separation between you and your God.
If you say "There is no MY God. I want no God. No God will ever be MY God." That would also be a problem why you do not experience what so many have.
But this portion of Isaiah informs us that there is no problem with the power of God's "hand" and no problem with God's "ear". But His "face" is turned away because man's sins have made a separation between himself and God. So calling on the Lord should also include the thought that you need the Lord to deal with the problem of your separating sins.
This shows the prophecy as false, but you will not accept that, nor the testimony of thousands of others who have experienced likewise. This is classic prophecy interpretation: ignore the problems, focus on the 'hits'. It's like going to see a psychic or reading a horoscope or casting I Ching or doing a Ouija board.
I would say that horoscopes and casting I Ching and psychic readings are an imitation of this and not the other way around.
In Exodus when Moses threw down his staff and it became a serpent the Egyptian magicians were able to do the same thing by their arts. That is incredible to me. However it reveals a principle.
To a degree the Satanic forces are able to imitate acts of God. So it is not that fulfilled biblical prophecy is like Edgar Cayce's or Jean Dixion's predictions. It is that Nostradamus and Jean Dixon, etc. are false prophets who by their dark arts sometimes have some imitation of the acts of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Modulous, posted 05-04-2009 10:43 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Modulous, posted 05-05-2009 1:48 PM jaywill has replied

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