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Author Topic:   Bumps in the Night
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 16 of 21 (507560)
05-06-2009 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Aussie
05-05-2009 3:59 PM


Re: How fun
Aussie writes:
I agree that it was some sort of hallucinatory experience, except it was a long sequence of experiences over four years.
I wasn't trying to lean so close to hallucinatory in the sense of "totally made up." That seems a bit too dismissive and easy for me. By "being fooled" I meant more towards the sense that you heard some things, and were mistaken in thinking they were from certain specific sources.
So my initial reaction was not to blame ghosts, but rather demons/evil spirits. *blushing furiously* Looking back, I see this as no less superstition that a belief in the paranormal, but there you have it. I have since generalized it out to the collective "Ghosts".
No specifics are required, I meant the term ghosts to encompass a vast array of unspecified sources. As a side note, I personally don't know of any difference between "demons/evil spirits" and "ghosts." The supernatural, paranormal, and religious spirits are all perfect synonyms to me. Different names from different cultural/social backgrounds for the same fundamentally unknown types of entities. I don't think any of them exist, but I certainly don't know everything
We would be in the bedroom, and it sounded like someone was rolling a bowling ball around the living room. When we would investigate, of course there would be nothing.
This is the kind of sentence that lets us easily slip into a feeling that it must be unexplainable. Which then only leads us into thinking of the sources that we are assuming are not even real. We must be clear that by "there would be nothing" we actually mean "our limited investigation lead to nothing." It is important to admit that your investigation was not all-encompassing. Perhaps you only looked for people-sized objects in the room. Perhaps you only looked under the chairs and sofas. I doubt you ripped the walls or floors open. I also doubt you did an extensive search using expensive equipment to search for minute traces of small creatures. Not that I blame you at all, such things are easily deemed "over the line" or "unrequired." But, well, we have to be clear that your investigation was obviously limited in some way, otherwise we would have found the cause. That is, if we are assuming the cause is mundane.
As for temperature, it didn't matter, except the frequency and intensity tended to increase toward the end of the year, when it was very cold. Hmmm...
Recognizing patterns is very helpful in determining a mundane cause. It may help to identify the actual cause, but at a minimum it should help to eliminate other possibilities. The problem with attempting to identify patterns from memory is that our brains like patterns. We like patterns so much that our brains will edit our memories to create patterns where none actually exist. Without recorded information, we are at a loss to know if our memories are correct representations of what actually did happen.
Yes, my point is not to convince you they were real, but rather to find better explanations that what I have come up with alone. And so far so good. Thanks.
Good to hear you're getting some nice ideas from the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Aussie, posted 05-05-2009 3:59 PM Aussie has not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 21 (507565)
05-06-2009 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aussie
05-05-2009 7:28 AM


Out of the ordinary expierences
quote:
I want to keep this opening brief, so I won't give any more details now, but I will be glad to elaborate or explain any questions I can as they are offered. I know this may be difficult in the sense that you don’t know me, and are not able to evaluate my psychology, but assuming I am not a basketcase, could there be some explanation for these experiences that do not involve the paranormal or the supernatural?
To be clear, I DO NOT believe in ghosts or demons, or the disembodied spirits of dead things roaming the Earth; I DO believe there must be a rational explanation for these experiences, and would love to hear from any of you, religious or otherwise, to hear what your thoughts are on such things.
I want you to try something.
Imagine something so well you actually SEE it.
Imagine hearing something so well, you hear it.
Now do that but forget you are imagining it.
I'll bet you can't do that. I don't know anyone who can. But that is exactly what most people who do not believe in ghosts will tell you you are doing.
Can I explain what happened to you, your wife, and friends. No
What is a "ghost"? I don't know, but they appear to have been around for all of recorded human history in every culture.
Try expalining this, I can't and I was there.
In 1971 my older brother and his wife's brother were out snowmobiling. to make a long story short Pete, my brother's brother in law died in an accident.
He left behind a wife, a 2 year old son, and a 3 month old daughter. It was not a happy time for our family. My brother was not doing well with it and had taken up drinking to dull his pain.
I was a bit worried about him. One Saturday I went over to see him about noon. He was already looped up, not too bad, but definitely under the influence. He wanted me to take him to Pete's grave. I did, driving his 1966 Chevy Impala SS. That car had very long doors. I parked the car a bit off the road and it was pitched at an angle that made it very difficult for me to open the drivers door but the passenger door fell open from gravity. My brother didn't close his door.
He was crying and walking toward Pete's grave. I was maybe 20 feet behind him. He turned to look at me and turned white as a sheet. He wasn't looking at me but beyond me toward the car. I turned and saw the car, and I saw the passenger door slam shut.
There was no wind and no reason for that door to slam. My brother said,"Let's go home".
My brother said he saw Pete standing by that car door and he was pissed and slammed it shut.My brother stopped drinking as a result of this expierence, at least to excess in regards to Pete's death.
I didn't see Pete, but I did see that car door slam shut for no reason.
Unlike our "friends" here at this board, I don't get to pretend this didn't happen. It did asnd I don't have a physical explaination for it.
No surprise to me some people believe in ghosts, or prehaps KNOW they exist would be a better way of putting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Aussie, posted 05-05-2009 7:28 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rahvin, posted 05-06-2009 1:05 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 19 by Stile, posted 05-06-2009 1:06 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 20 by Aussie, posted 05-06-2009 1:12 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 05-06-2009 3:40 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 18 of 21 (507568)
05-06-2009 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by petrophysics1
05-06-2009 12:16 PM


Re: Out of the ordinary expierences
Unlike our "friends" here at this board, I don't get to pretend this didn't happen. It did asnd I don't have a physical explaination for it.
No surprise to me some people believe in ghosts, or prehaps KNOW they exist would be a better way of putting it.
Why would any of us say it didn't happen?
I'd suggest that it wasn't a ghost, that your brother hallucinated Pete, but I wouldn't claim that the door didn't slam.
The human mind tries to identify patterns all the time, including patterns that aren't there. Just the other day while checking my mail, I could have sworn I saw a man in a striped shirt out of the corner of my eye. I could even give a basic description - somewhat heavyset, dark hair, caucasian, around 6' tall. Of course, when I looked directly where I thought I saw him, there was only a plant, the fence around the apartment complex's tennis court, and beyond that a stairwell. There was no man - my brain simply assembled half-glanced images and interpreted an image that I would "expect."
Memory bias will by now have colored the experience for you, but I would hazard to guess that the car was parked on uneven ground such that the door closed itself, or there was a slight breeze that you simply didn't notice, or any number of other things that could cause a car door to close seemingly by itself. The remainder of your story is false pattern recognition, faulty memory (since there is a rather porous barrier in the human mind between "memory" and "fantasy"), and in the case of your brother, likely alcohol.
These are all far more mundane than a ghost slamming a door. Given the copious amounts of evidence we have for these mundane explanations (we have ample evidence that alcohol affects perception, that even a sober mind will identify patterns that don't exist, and that human memory is highly unreliable) and the utter lack of evidence that "ghosts" exist, the mundane explanation is far more likely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by petrophysics1, posted 05-06-2009 12:16 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 19 of 21 (507569)
05-06-2009 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by petrophysics1
05-06-2009 12:16 PM


What's the difference?
petrophysics1 writes:
No surprise to me some people believe in ghosts, or prehaps KNOW they exist would be a better way of putting it.
No, that's not a better way to put it, that's a confusion and dishonest way of putting it.
The fact that you failed to uncover a mundane explanation for your story does not point to the conclusion that there isn't one. It only shows that your search for a mundane explanation was too limited in order to find one.
Everything we KNOW to exist in reality shares one thing in common. At least someone, somewhere, at some time, has verifiably identified a difference between the real, existing thing and imagination.
Since your story does not include such a thing, we are unable to say that you KNOW ghosts exist.
You can present all the nice claims you like, without being able to verifiably differentiate between your story being real or imagined... it will forever stay in the realm of imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by petrophysics1, posted 05-06-2009 12:16 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 20 of 21 (507570)
05-06-2009 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by petrophysics1
05-06-2009 12:16 PM


Re: Out of the ordinary expierences
Hi Petrophysics1,
I want you to try something.
Imagine something so well you actually SEE it.
Imagine hearing something so well, you hear it.
Now do that but forget you are imagining it.
I'll bet you can't do that. I don't know anyone who can. But that is exactly what most people who do not believe in ghosts will tell you you are doing.
My point is that I don't think I IMAGINED anything at all. I believe there was an underlying cause of what I and a number of otherwise normal, sane people experienced. At the time I truly believed its origins to be supernatural, but as time and distance passed, and learning occurred I began to feel there must be alternate explanations.
As has been discussed earlier in this thread, to say "I don't believe you, you never heard/felt such things" and dismiss it out of hand, is both thoughtless and shallow. This would most likely only be appropriate after a thorough psychological profile of the subject/s. Perhaps if someone has been identified as as being a pathological liar, hungry for attention, well..they might not be taken too seriously with good reason. We don't have that luxury with each other though. This is why I was hoping to assume for the sake of this thread that insanity/dishonesty etc, might be overlooked. So I want to assume that no one is telling me that I am a fool or liar...just because. I don't think that has happened yet. *so far*
Also, without knowing you, I am compelled to give you the benefit of the doubt. So of course I believe the experience you related. Now for you (AND) for me, we both attributed an otherwise strange occurrence to the realm of the supernatural, which is almost by definition, unseeable and unmeasurable. But what if in our cases, it was not that the experience was INTRINSICALLY unknowable or unmeasurable, but rather it was just US that didn't see what the natural cause was, in that moment.
I have seen a pattern that many of these events occur at or during moments of great duress, many involving emotional/psychological trauma, or moments of heightened fear. Our brain plays off these emotions with great delight.
In my case I am only assuming there was a simpler cause than having to deal with ressurected spirits of the dead interfering with the laws of physics. To me there HAS to be something simpler than this. In your case, you were both torn with the sadness of a deceased loved one, approaching the place where his body was lying. Can you really say that your brain could not possibly have been perfectly primed to interpret whatever happened in the light of the paranormal? I'm just thinking about it, not questioning your sanity OR mine.
Unlike our "friends" here at this board, I don't get to pretend this didn't happen. It did asnd I don't have a physical explaination for it.
No surprise to me some people believe in ghosts, or prehaps KNOW they exist would be a better way of putting it.
I don't think it's unlikely that I know any of the members personally, so the term "Friends" (with or without quotation marks) applies. However, they have been a consistent sounding board for as long as I've been lurking.
Of course, it is very hard for anyone to KNOW a spirit exists, isn't it?
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I'd love to hear more from you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by petrophysics1, posted 05-06-2009 12:16 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 21 of 21 (507592)
05-06-2009 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by petrophysics1
05-06-2009 12:16 PM


Re: Out of the ordinary expierences
quote:
He was already looped up, not too bad, but definitely under the influence.
quote:
My brother said he saw Pete standing by that car door
That fact he was drunk and emotional kind of discredits the whole story, don't you think.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by petrophysics1, posted 05-06-2009 12:16 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
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