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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6263
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 181 of 327 (507734)
05-07-2009 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by John 10:10
05-07-2009 11:28 AM


Nope.

He needs to respond to the criticisms of his interpretations that this is a fulfilled prophecy. He repeats the same old things without addressing the criticsims in a meaningful manner.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by John 10:10, posted 05-07-2009 11:28 AM John 10:10 has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1620 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 182 of 327 (507753)
05-07-2009 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by jaywill
05-07-2009 10:58 AM


Righteous Servant
quote:
If so then how can Israel be called in the prophecy "the righteous One, My Servant"? Which is it? Did the nation go astray from God or is the nation the righeous One?
Righteous doesn't mean one has never sinned. The servant is called righteous after repentance. (Ezekiel 18)
Jesus still needed the baptism of repentance, so he probably did sin whether intentional or not. (Mark 1)

Removed from the "land of the living" could also mean removed from the land of Israel. Exile!

4th Servant Song
When Israel's exile finally ends, the leaders of the (Gentile) nations will marvel at a people who survived the expulsion(s) from the land of the living (an expression often used in the Hebrew Bible for the Land of Israel [e.g., Ezek 26:20, 32:23,24,25,26,27,32]), along with all the unfair and unjust treatment that accompanied their time in exile.

Hard to tell in a poem over 2,000 years old in a dead language.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2009 10:58 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Cedre, posted 05-08-2009 4:38 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 195 by jaywill, posted 05-08-2009 9:33 AM purpledawn has responded

Michamus
Member (Idle past 3320 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 183 of 327 (507784)
05-08-2009 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by jaywill
05-07-2009 11:50 AM


Been at least 12 hours... still no response. Hmmm... perhaps your true reason behind that post is becoming apparent?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2009 11:50 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 184 of 327 (507795)
05-08-2009 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Modulous
05-05-2009 1:48 PM


Re: The confidence trick of prophecy
You didn't read my post before responding to this bit, perhaps? I have. Thousands of others have. And they didn't have the experience you did.

What experience were they anticipating when they went into Christianity? Perhaps they went into Christianity hoping for a particular feeling or experience but ended up getting something they didnít hope for. My question is how can you say that you didnít experience God if you were not formerly aware of what an experience with God feels like? Maybe what you felt is what an experience with God feels like. Itís practically the same as taking a drug for the very first time, before taking it you obviously have preconceived ideas of the feeling you might get after taking it, but at the best this is only a guess and the actual feeling may be widely divergent from what you had imagined.
The truth is every experience is unique Paul had a spectacular experience, which I will dub the Pauline experience, but many modern Christians, not all of them though, have had more humble experiences. So if your experience falls into the second category it doesnít mean you didnít experience God it simply means that your experience with Him wasnít the Pauline experience you probably hoped for.

But the fact remains many people including Christians misconstrue what being in a relationship with God means, they think that a relationship with God is a warm tender sensation that lathers up in the gut causing you to feel good all over and when it dies back you desire it all over again and when it doesn't return you become depressed and overtime you succeed at convincing yourself that you have been forsaken by God.

This is a terrible mistake that is best avoided, but it is one that anyone can fall victim to even well grounded Christians become victims every so often. This is so because we are emotional creatures and we like getting emotionally involved in things including in our relationship with God, although this is not wrong it is wrong to base an entire relationship on an occasional warm fussy feeling that doesnít even last.

A true relationship with God is not measured by how good you feel it is measured by how much faith we put in Him and have in His Word.

Luk 12:22 Jesus said to his disciples: I tell you not to worry about your life! Don't worry about having something to eat or wear.
Luk 12:23 Life is more than food or clothing.
Luk 12:24 Look at the crows! They don't plant or harvest, and they don't have storehouses or barns. But God takes care of them. You are much more important than any birds.
Luk 12:25 Can worry make you live longer?
Luk 12:26 If you don't have power over small things, why worry about everything else?
Luk 12:27 Look how the wild flowers grow! They don't work hard to make their clothes. But I tell you that Solomon with all his wealth wasn't as well clothed as one of these flowers.
Luk 12:28 God gives such beauty to everything that grows in the fields, even though it is here today and thrown into a fire tomorrow. Won't he do even more for you? You have such little faith!
Luk 12:29 Don't keep worrying about having something to eat or drink.
Luk 12:30 Only people who don't know God are always worrying about such things. Your Father knows what you need.

The important point that God wants to drive home here is our faith in him, without faith we cannot please God, as such our relationship with God also has to be established on faith and thus it is not so much about how we feel at a given time. And how is faith nurtured? By reading the bible and by spending quality time with God in prayer.

No. I called out, believing that he was my Holy Father. I appreciate that in order for your precarious faith to survive these facts, you have to find some reason to deny these things, you have to concoct a loophole to explain why it didn't work out for me, and for thousands - maybe millions, who are in a similar position.

Maybe you got lazy along the way; this may have been a result of you basing your relationship on something else other than faith. Only those who endure to the end will be saved the bible assures us. If you gave up along the way thatís your fault, donít forget that youíre in a relationship here just like any other, if you neglect your partner this will cause a steady split between the two of you. If you didnít spend quality time with God how did you expect your relationship to grow? To keep a relationship alive you need to apply a few principles to it the same goes if you want it to bloom; plow your relationship, sow in it, nurture it, make it work. If you draw nearer to God He will draw nearer to you, if you withdraw from Him He will withdraw from you also, itís a give and take thing, itís not one-sided.

1. You didn't try.
2. You didn't do it right.
3. You didn't believe hard enough.
4. Your subconscious scepticism interefered with God's desire to help.

These are valid points that could account for why your experience wasnít so successful. If you doubt me donít apply anyone of them in your human relationships and you will witness how in a short time they all bite the dust. If youíre in a marriage for example and if you donít try to make it work or you donít do it right for example you cheat and lie to your spouse and things like that, or you lack trust in your spouse, or youíre skeptical about your spouseís love for you. Do you think after all of these things have taken place that your marriage will carry on to the next day or even grow? The same thing will happen with your relationship with God if you neglect or misuse it in any of the above ways. How can you honestly want a true experience or relationship with God if youíre not making an effort to have a true relationship? How ironic indeed is this.

Christianity is a faith-based relationship with God, it a relationship so treat it like one and you will see that it works after all.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Modulous, posted 05-05-2009 1:48 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Michamus, posted 05-08-2009 7:48 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 188 by Modulous, posted 05-08-2009 8:32 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 185 of 327 (507796)
05-08-2009 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by purpledawn
05-07-2009 6:43 PM


Re: Righteous Servant
Righteous doesn't mean one has never sinned. The servant is called righteous after repentance. (Ezekiel 18)
Jesus still needed the baptism of repentance, so he probably did sin whether intentional or not. (Mark 1)

Your first point is right, but your second point is nothing more than a wild conjecture and even goes against what scripture teaches concerning the sinless nature of Jesus.

Removed from the "land of the living" could also mean removed from the land of Israel. Exile!

4th Servant Song
When Israel's exile finally ends, the leaders of the (Gentile) nations will marvel at a people who survived the expulsion(s) from the land of the living (an expression often used in the Hebrew Bible for the Land of Israel [e.g., Ezek 26:20, 32:23,24,25,26,27,32]), along with all the unfair and unjust treatment that accompanied their time in exile.

Purpledawn is at it again giving interpretation her own unique twist.
These scriptures she presents as support for whatever she believes by no means call Israel the land of the living. The phrase "land of the living" is a general phrase and not a specific one, which is used only to distinguish the world were the dead reside and the world were the living reside, it is not a specific phrase only referring to Israel as has been suggested by purpldawn.

Hard to tell in a poem over 2,000 years old in a dead language.

Its not been shown to be a poem number one and number two its not that hard to understand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by purpledawn, posted 05-07-2009 6:43 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by purpledawn, posted 05-08-2009 8:41 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 3320 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 186 of 327 (507802)
05-08-2009 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Cedre
05-08-2009 4:16 AM


Re: The confidence trick of prophecy
Cedre writes:


But the fact remains many people including Christians misconstrue what being in a relationship with God means


Ah, but Cedre knows the answer!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Cedre, posted 05-08-2009 4:16 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 187 of 327 (507807)
05-08-2009 8:29 AM


Purpledawn wrote:
Righteous doesn't mean one has never sinned. The servant is called righteous after repentance. (Ezekiel 18)
Jesus still needed the baptism of repentance, so he probably did sin whether intentional or not. (Mark 1)

The baptism of Jesus does not signify that He sinned and needed His sins washed away. It does signify that in His incarnation He came in the form of the fallen Adamic nature which needed to be denied, terminated, and buried because it is self bound and so independent.

He all His life denied Himself and lived by the Father. With the fall of man an independent soul life came into existence. Jesus came in the form of this independent self yet without sin. The baptism of a righteoues man here signifies the burial of that independent self in order to deny the self and live out the Father who indwelt Him.

Independently, Jesus' will was a good will. But He did not come to do His good independent will of a good man. He denied Himself and performed the will of His Father. Baptism was His way of demonstrating that He intended to deny Himself, even as a good man, and live through and by the Father's life.

This passage shows that even the goodness of His human life He denied in order to do the Father's will not His own.

John 8:26 - "I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him, these things I speak to the world.

They did not understand that He was speaking to them of the Father."

In the goodness of His own human life He could say and judge with goodness and righteousness, because He was sinless. But even this goodness He denied in order to live out the Father's life and speak what He heard from the Father.

"I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 5:30)

Therefore Jesus denied Himself even though He was sinless. And baptism He insisted upon to demonstrate that even He was living not by Himself alone, but by His Father.

Jesus did not come in the form of the unfallen Adam (before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). Jesus was incarnated in the form of the fallen man, yet without sin.

" ... God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." (Romans 8:3)

Jesus came in the appearance of a fallen man yet without the sin of the fallen man.

The footnote of the Recovery Version says concerning Romans 8:3:

"The flesh is of sin, yet the Son of God became flesh (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14; 1 Tim. 3:16). This is typified by the bronze serpent lifted up by Moses for the sinful Israelites (Num. 21:9; John 3:14). The bronze serpent was in the form, the likeness, of an actual serpent but did not have its poison. It was such a bronze serpent that bore God's judgment for the poisoned Israelites and dealt with the serpents that poisoned them.

Although Christ did not have the sin of the flesh, He was crucified in the flesh (Col. 1:22; 1 Pet. 3:18). Thus, on the cross He judged Satan, who is related to the flesh, and the world, which hangs on him (John 12:31; 16:11), thereby destroying Satan (Heb. 2:14). At the same time, through Christ's crucifixion in the flesh, God condemned sin, which was brought by Satan into man's flesh. As a result, it is possible for us to walk not according to the flesh but according to the spirit that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us. (v.4).

www.recoveryversion.org

My main point is Christ's requested baptism did not signfiy the washing away of Christ's sins. It signifed His intention to deny Himself, even the sinless self, and live out the Father's life and will.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by purpledawn, posted 05-08-2009 12:01 PM jaywill has responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 266 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 188 of 327 (507808)
05-08-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Cedre
05-08-2009 4:16 AM


Re: The confidence trick of prophecy
Maybe you got lazy along the way; this may have been a result of you basing your relationship on something else other than faith. Only those who endure to the end will be saved the bible assures us.

So, the prophecy is true, one should feel rich, and the reason I didn't is because I didn't try hard enough, was too lazy, didn't believe hard enough and so on.

1. You didn't try.
2. You didn't do it right.
3. You didn't believe hard enough.
4. Your subconscious scepticism interefered with God's desire to help.

These are valid points that could account for why your experience wasnít so successful. If you doubt me donít apply anyone of them in your human relationships and you will witness how in a short time they all bite the dust.

You have avoided the points I was raising in an attempt to proseltyse at me. Do you accept that the prophecy jaywill raised is unfalsifiable? That if it doesn't seem to come true in certain cases there exists a handy list of excuses that believers can pull out of their asses - all of the excuses are handily impossible to verify.

It kind of sounds like The Emperor is naked to me. It sounds like the excuses psychics, telekinetics, mediums, voodou practitioners come up with all of the time.

So, whether or not what you are saying about the relationship with Yahweh is true (and my personal experience would imply that is actually false)...it is entirely ridiculous to tout it as a fulfilled prophecy if you are only going to count the hits and explain away the misses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Cedre, posted 05-08-2009 4:16 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by jaywill, posted 05-08-2009 8:48 AM Modulous has responded
 Message 194 by jaywill, posted 05-08-2009 9:24 AM Modulous has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1620 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 189 of 327 (507810)
05-08-2009 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Cedre
05-08-2009 4:38 AM


Re: Righteous Servant
quote:
Your first point is right, but your second point is nothing more than a wild conjecture and even goes against what scripture teaches concerning the sinless nature of Jesus.
Read Mark 1 and your previous thread on sin. John preached a baptism of repentance and Jesus insisted on being baptized. Make your case as it relates to the topic. Show it, don't just say it.

quote:
Purpledawn is at it again giving interpretation her own unique twist.
These scriptures she presents as support for whatever she believes by no means call Israel the land of the living. The phrase "land of the living" is a general phrase and not a specific one, which is used only to distinguish the world were the dead reside and the world were the living reside, it is not a specific phrase only referring to Israel as has been suggested by purpldawn.
As are you. The difference is that the excerpt I provided isn't my twist. It's another alternative to discuss. The implication isn't that the phrase only refers to the land of Israel, but the phrase has been used to refer to the land of Israel.

The suffering servant's "deaths" as well as the description of his subsequent revival are metaphors for the fortunes of Israel. The phrases "for he was cut off out of the land of the living" (verse 8), "his grave was set" (verse 9), and "in his deaths" (verse 9) are not to be taken literally. The metaphor "his grave was set" describing an event in the life of God's suffering servant, is similar to the statement, "for he was cut off out of the land of the living" (verse 8). Metaphors of this type, used to describe deep anguish and subjection to enemies, are part of the biblical idiom. Similar metaphorical language is used, for example, in Ezekiel 37 to express the condition preceding relief and rejuvenation following the end of exile.

God threatened to destroy those who terrorized the land of Israel. Being cut off from the land doesn't automatically mean physical death.

As far as being a poem, that has been established and not by me.

Songs of the Suffering Servant (also called the Servant songs or Servant poems) were first identified by Bernhard Duhm in his 1892 commentary on Isaiah. The songs are four poems taken from the Book of Isaiah written about a certain "servant of Yahweh."

That's why we look at the three previous songs to get clues.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Cedre, posted 05-08-2009 4:38 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jaywill, posted 05-08-2009 9:10 AM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 193 by jaywill, posted 05-08-2009 9:20 AM purpledawn has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 190 of 327 (507811)
05-08-2009 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Modulous
05-08-2009 8:32 AM


Re: The confidence trick of prophecy
Do you accept that the prophecy jaywill raised is unfalsifiable? That if it doesn't seem to come true in certain cases there exists a handy list of excuses that believers can pull out of their asses - all of the excuses are handily impossible to verify.

There is no need for you to bulster the strength of your argument with fowl language.

There are some prophecies which may be better than others to argue for evidence of the faithfulness of the Bible. However, we will not allow unbelievers to insist that a fulfillment of prophecy is not "universal" because they continue in unbelief.

For example, Isaiah 53 speaks of the Suffering Servant dying for the sins of the people. Now if some atheist or agnostic says that he doesn't even BELEIVE that he has sinned or is in need of the forgiveness of sins, WHY On earth should we accept his saying the prophecy has not been fulfilled in Jesus' crucifixion?

He doesn't even believe he is a sinner. What right does such a person have to say that the redemptive death of Christ is not a universal fulfillment of prophecy?

Your unbelief in certain aspects of God's word does not qualify you to determine the non-unversality of prophecy.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Modulous, posted 05-08-2009 8:32 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Theodoric, posted 05-08-2009 9:40 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 197 by Peepul, posted 05-08-2009 11:45 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 201 by Modulous, posted 05-08-2009 12:42 PM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 191 of 327 (507813)
05-08-2009 8:57 AM


Folks, Isaiah begins chapter 53 with the question "Who has believe our report?"

This is the prophet speaking on behalf of himself and most likely OTHER prophets of God. The point of the question is that we should not be surprised at rampant unbelief in thier report.

Modulous and purpledawn are simply examples of this rejection of the prophetic report concerning Christ.

Not only so but the prophecy indicates that people of Christ's own generation would have a hard time understanding the import of His act:

"And as for His generation, who [among them] had thought that He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke [was due]? (v.8)

The high priest surpised the relgionist by prophesying that one man would die for the nation. For the most part, no one expected this to happen. This was another fulfillment of Isaiah 53 in Christ's redemptive death and resurrection.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


jaywill
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 192 of 327 (507818)
05-08-2009 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by purpledawn
05-08-2009 8:41 AM


Re: Righteous Servant
Read Mark 1 and your previous thread on sin. John preached a baptism of repentance and Jesus insisted on being baptized. Make your case as it relates to the topic. Show it, don't just say it.

I made a case. Termination of the old man in baptism is not only for its sins. It is even for living a "good" life yet apart from the Father's will.

Jesus had no sins. Yet He denied Himself and did not His own will but the will of His Father.

Burial in baptism signified His intention to put even His sinless self under termination to do the Father's will. So He insisted on being baptized.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by purpledawn, posted 05-08-2009 8:41 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 193 of 327 (507819)
05-08-2009 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by purpledawn
05-08-2009 8:41 AM


Re: Righteous Servant
Purpledawn again:

God threatened to destroy those who terrorized the land of Israel. Being cut off from the land doesn't automatically mean physical death.

Now this is curious. Wasn't it you saying that the seed had to not be taken metaphorically or spiritually? Now you metaphorically interpret what you wish, all in order to make the chapter refer to something else besides Christ.

Do you see how you apply a double standard? I see you simply using what you complain against when it suits your purpose to point Isaiah's prophesy away from Jesus Christ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by purpledawn, posted 05-08-2009 8:41 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by purpledawn, posted 05-08-2009 11:50 AM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 194 of 327 (507821)
05-08-2009 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Modulous
05-08-2009 8:32 AM


Re: The confidence trick of prophecy
Modulous,

Rule 10 from the Forum Guidelines says this:

10. Keep discussion civil and avoid inflammatory behavior that might distract attention from the topic. Argue the position, not the person.

Please refrain, Modulous, from refering to those who disagree with you as pulling things out of thier you know what. That's not civil and its inflamatory.

And it adds no strength to your point either.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Modulous, posted 05-08-2009 8:32 AM Modulous has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 195 of 327 (507823)
05-08-2009 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by purpledawn
05-07-2009 6:43 PM


Re: Righteous Servant
Purpledawn writes:

Removed from the "land of the living" could also mean removed from the land of Israel. Exile!

Isaiah says " ... He poured out His soul unto death" (v.12). So physical death is more likely the meaning.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by purpledawn, posted 05-07-2009 6:43 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by purpledawn, posted 05-08-2009 12:21 PM jaywill has responded

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