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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Seashells on tops of mountains. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
This thread, the Seashells on tops of mountains. thread, resides in the [forum=-7] forum, which is one of the science forums. Regardless of the source of any idea, whether it be the Bible, a scientist, a dream, science requires one to say, "I must check if my idea is correct by gathering and examining evidence from the real world."
In other words, science threads are all about evidence, not declarations of belief.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4210 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Circle does not mean spherical. Round would be logical as a shape since looking in any direction. the horizon appears equidistant. Dust of the ground is not what living things are made of simply some of them. If man were made from dust of the earth the majority of the body would be silicon, aluminum & iron.
Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read. Edited by AdminNosy, : hide off topicness There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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Peg writes: seriously, i dont claim to understand it all, but i am 100% convinced that their is a Creator and the bible is his word and hence I would always first assume that scientists may have the wrong idea... they have been known to change their opinions on things as their knowledge increases just as a non believer would do in reverse when it comes to creation You do realize that there are many scientists out there who believe in God and consider themselves Christians yet reject the pseudoscience of creationism and intelligent design? Edited by AdminNosy, : hidden off topic stuff Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hey Peg,
actually i recall mentioning how mountains rise and fall of mountains into the sea... the earth is always moving as we know and there are are mountains deep down in the ocean beds and some have been pushed up to above the surface Which is where we started: how can you tell whether this is just an ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy or not? The question is what kind of time frame you think this occurs over, and how consistent is that with observations. Note that the evidence contains many layers of many generations of marine organisms in a mature ecosystem.
... and hence I would always first assume that scientists may have the wrong idea... they have been known to change their opinions on things as their knowledge increases So the scientific ideas about the age of the earth are going to change the depth and diversity of layers of marine life? Or is it just that you don't want to play fair and consider that your personal (non-scientific, untested) ideas may also be wrong? Would you change your ideas as your knowledge increases or would you reject an increase in knowledge that contradicts your ideas?
Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read. seriously, i dont claim to understand it all, but i am 100% convinced ... If you don't understand it all how can you be certain of anything? Would not a better approach be open minded skepticism of all ideas?
just as a non believer would do in reverse when it comes to creation Do you reject the creation portrayed in the other religions? If so, then how is that different?
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Hi radz
Radz writes: Which is where we started: how can you tell whether this is just an ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy or not? The question is what kind of time frame you think this occurs over, and how consistent is that with observations. Note that the evidence contains many layers of many generations of marine organisms in a mature ecosystem. its obviously something that happens very slowly over a long period of time... there is no way anyone could witness it.
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in the instance of this scripture, it forms a testament to the fact that there are things that were written down that even the writers did not understand or have knowlege of. There is no way the writer of the psalm could have known of this process and yet here it is described in his words. Evidence of inspiration to many.
Razd writes: So the scientific ideas about the age of the earth are going to change the depth and diversity of layers of marine life? Or is it just that you don't want to play fair and consider that your personal (non-scientific, untested) ideas may also be wrong? Would you change your ideas as your knowledge increases or would you reject an increase in knowledge that contradicts your ideas? the scientific ideas just may change...they have changed in the past, they are always changing. And yes, i would have my understanding adjusted if there was evidence to the contrary. science is only how we measure things...our measurements are not always right. there are still some things that we can never measure, such as time. Where did it start? Even the greatest scientific mind will never pin point its beginning. Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Radz, yes i do reject the creation stories of other religions. Chinese Folk Mythology says “ Chaos was like a hen’s egg. Neither Heaven nor Earth existed. From the egg P’an-ku was born, while of its heavy elements Earth was made and Sky from the light elements. P’an-ku is represented as a dwarf, clad in a bearskin or a cloak of leaves. For 18,000 years the distance between Earth and Sky grew daily by ten feet, and P’an-ku grew at the same rate so that his body filled the gap. When he died, different parts of his body became various natural elements. ... His body fleas became the human race.” The greek story of creation was..."First Uranus was supreme, but he suppressed his children, and Gaia encouraged his son Cronos to castrate him. Cronos in turn devoured his own children, until his wife Rhea gave him a stone to eat in place of Zeus; the child Zeus was brought up in Crete, compelled his father to disgorge his siblings, and with them and other aid defeated Cronos and his Titans and cast them down into Tartarus" these alone make the bible creation account a vivid reality.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
duplicate deleted
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
thanks Peg, had trouble with my connection last night
the scientific ideas just may change...they have changed in the past, they are always changing. Do you know of a single instance where they have changed drastically versus refined the concepts? Age of the earth for instance keeps getting refined. It is like finding the value for π - we can't find an exact number but we can continually refine the value we have.
And yes, i would have my understanding adjusted if there was evidence to the contrary. Good. Then you accept that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that for at least 3.5 billion of those years life has existed? The evidence of seashells on mountain tops is part of that evidence of age that adds up to an old earth.
Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read. yes i do reject the creation stories of other religions. So you are special pleading your version of creation then. Enjoy. Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Razd writes: Do you know of a single instance where they have changed drastically versus refined the concepts? Piltdown man! the find was asserted to be a vital “missing link” between man and beast. It was “discovered” by Charles Dawson at Piltdown, England, early in this century. But decades later it was exposed as a hoax, a fake. It turned out to be the skull of a modern man combined with the jawbone of an ape that had been “doctored” with chemicals to try to make it look ancient.
Razd writes: Good. Then you accept that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that for at least 3.5 billion of those years life has existed?The evidence of seashells on mountain tops is part of that evidence of age that adds up to an old earth. absolutely! we dont know the exact age of the earth, but we know that each creative period spanned a very long time.
Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read.Radz writes: So you are special pleading your version of creation then. you've gotta admit, the bibles creation explanation hold a hell of a lot more reality then any of those other myths. Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
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Peg writes: Razd writes: Do you know of a single instance where they have changed drastically versus refined the concepts? Piltdown man! the find was asserted to be a vital “missing link” between man and beast...etc... Piltdown man was a fraud perpetuated upon the scientific community, one which that community eventually uncovered as the growing evidence made the possibility of fraud increasingly difficult to ignore. Even in the early years after its "discovery" when its validity was not in question, Piltdown was an anomaly that had little impact on scientific theories of human origins, and as time went by it was increasingly marginalized as fraud increasingly became the only realistic explanation. If you want an example of science radically changing theory you should look to continental drift. Read up on Eugene Wegener over at Wikipedia, it's a great story. Briefly, Wegener stood up to a geological community that largely rejected his ideas about continental motion about the earth's surface. He was eventually shown right, posthumously, unfortunately. Another example of radical change to theory would be what we today call the Copernican revolution, the discovery by Copernicus and the eventual acceptance by the rest of the world that the Earth does not lie at the center of the universe. But revolution and refinement of scientific theory are both driven by evidence. That's what makes the process of developing theories scientific. Theories are not accepted because scientists say so. Theories are accepted because the evidence is of sufficient volume and quality to persuade the community of scientists. The argument, "You've been wrong before and could be wrong again," is one that can be applied by all sides in all discussions and so has no validity. The accusation, "You could be wrong," just draws the retort, "So could you," and then what?
--Percy Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2315 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
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Peg writes:
I don't think it holds any reality. What part of the genesis creation story would you describe as being in accordance with reality?
you've gotta admit, the bibles creation explanation hold a hell of a lot more reality then any of those other myths. Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given. I hunt for the truth
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onifre Member (Idle past 2971 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
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you've gotta admit, the bibles creation explanation hold a hell of a lot more reality then any of those other myths.
Given that cultures become more aware of certain aspects of reality as time goes by, the fact that they had a better understanding of it(reality) than the cultures they preceded doesn't mean that they got it right. It just means that they got it less wrong than the others. But, never the less, the Christian account of creation is still a mythological story, even if it's less* outrageous than Greek Mythology. *Not by much...
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given. "All great truths begin as blasphemies" "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks Peg,
absolutely! we dont know the exact age of the earth, but we know that each creative period spanned a very long time. Great.
Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read. you've gotta admit, the bibles creation explanation hold a hell of a lot more reality then any of those other myths. Um, actually, no - I do not need to admit any such thing. Why would you think so? Other creation stories work as powerful metaphors regardless of their scientific factuality.
Piltdown man! the find was asserted to be a vital “missing link” between man and beast. And yet the Piltdown man did not change the basic concept of man descending from a common ancestor with apes, rather the details have been filled in and they were what showed that the Piltdown man had to be a hoax. Refinement of the concept goes on today and we now have a fairly complete lineage: 29 Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1
Don't you agree that the concept of descent of man and ape from a common ancestor is still alive and well? Science adds knowledge by the process of testing concepts against evidence, and even when concepts are invalidated by evidence this adds to our knowledge of reality. By this process our understanding of reality is refined and improved.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Doubletime Junior Member (Idle past 5413 days) Posts: 27 Joined: |
I dont belive no silly flood took them there. It must have been pirates
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Doubletime Junior Member (Idle past 5413 days) Posts: 27 Joined: |
Yeah thoose pesky creationist are retards. I believe that it is so much more likely that pirates place them there. ARgghh me hearty.
Now for a more seriuos notes. I can't really see why this is not classified as very strong evidence that a worldwide flood that took place in the not to distant past had happend. Of this is a strong indication for the bible but from a 100 percent objective scientist it would only do as proof for a worldwide flood. Not that worldiwide flood but some flood. But again i doubt the scientific community would support abiogenisis or Big Bang if they were 100 percent objective. But except for mountain peaks i can remember reading about shells being found in deserts to. and in my school they even have fosils of sea creatures found in desert.
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