EvC Forum: Uncreated Creator Argument

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Topic: Uncreated Creator Argument

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2725 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

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Message 73 of 80 (507625)
05-06-2009 8:54 PM

Reply to: Message 70 by Rahvin
05-06-2009 2:11 PM

Re: The cause of causality

Hi, Rahvin.

Rahvin writes:

Bluejay writes:

Rahvin writes:

Most of these debates come down to the question of whether existence or nonexistence is preferable, or the "default state." If the "default state" is nonexistence, it would seem that some event would be required to "cause" existence.

"Default states": that's something I've never thought about before. It sounds interesting.

But, what is non-existence of not the stuff "outside" the universe, "before" the Big Bang, and "north" of the North Pole? Doesn't that stuff "not exist," regardless of whether or not the universe "does exist?"

It's not that stuff "outside" of the unvierse doesn't exist - it's that those particular questions don't make sense.

In the set of numbers:

{0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8...}

which number comes before 0?

That doesn't mean that this number set is all that exists - it simply means that the question is invalid, just like asking what is "North" of the North Pole.

If nothing is, nor ever can be, north of the North Pole, I would say "north of the North Pole" does not exist.

What else could "does not exist" possibly mean?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

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	Message 70 by Rahvin, posted 05-06-2009 2:11 PM		Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 77 by Perdition, posted 05-07-2009 12:28 PM		Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2725 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 74 of 80 (507627)
05-06-2009 9:04 PM

Reply to: Message 72 by Phage0070
05-06-2009 2:38 PM

Re: The cause of causality

Hi, Phage.

Phage writes:

Lets try to look at it from a perspective that is not centered around humanity. All those things that "do not exist" are purely conceptual; that is to say, they are only brought about by the workings of a human mind.

As far as I am aware, the only alternative to non-existence is existence.

So, what was the status of unicorns before a human mind imagined them up?

If they did not exist before humans imagined them up, I think it's safe to say that your idea is pure nonsense.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 72 by Phage0070, posted 05-06-2009 2:38 PM		Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 76 by Phage0070, posted 05-06-2009 10:13 PM		Blue Jay has not replied

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2725 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 75 of 80 (507628)
05-06-2009 9:06 PM

Reply to: Message 68 by Straggler
05-04-2009 7:43 PM

Re: The cause of causality

Hi, Straggler.

I couldn't think up much of a response to most of your post, but I can answer this one:

Straggler writes:

Good luck!!!

What exam is it?

It was statistics.

I think I rocked it from here to Mars.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 68 by Straggler, posted 05-04-2009 7:43 PM		Straggler has not replied

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2725 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 78 of 80 (507721)
05-07-2009 2:38 PM

Reply to: Message 77 by Perdition
05-07-2009 12:28 PM

Non-Existence

Hi, Phage and Perdition.

(Sounds like a delightful crowd there.)

Existence and non-existence are not an "A or B" dichotomy: they are an "A or not-A" dichotomy. Whatever doesn't fit "A," by definition, fits "not-A": it's really that simple.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 77 by Perdition, posted 05-07-2009 12:28 PM		Perdition has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 79 by Rahvin, posted 05-07-2009 4:06 PM		Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2725 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

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Message 80 of 80 (507969)
05-09-2009 9:53 AM

Reply to: Message 79 by Rahvin
05-07-2009 4:06 PM

Re: Non-Existence

Hi, Rahvin.

Rahvin writes:

quote:
A

{0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8}

What number comes before 0 in the number set?

The question doesn't make sense, because there is no number below 0 in the number set.

Does nothing exist other than the number set?

I see an A.

Granted.

I have absolutely no trouble with the principles that you or anybody else has so far presented in this discussion. The trouble I do have is that your analogies are not applicable to the set "existence," because, by definition, the set "existence" excludes nothing.

Check it out:

Let's use your original number set:

{0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9}

Now, let's label that set "existence," and define the term "exist" to refer to anything that fits in the set "existence."

Then, ask the question, "What comes before 0?"

In this set, nothing comes before 0. Anything that comes before 0 does not fit the definition of "exist" provided above. So, "things that come before 0" do not exist.

This is why these analogies don't work: because, in the case of "existence," things that don't fit into the set are, by definition, "non-existent."

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 79 by Rahvin, posted 05-07-2009 4:06 PM		Rahvin has not replied

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