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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 157 of 327 (507447)
05-05-2009 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by purpledawn
05-04-2009 11:41 AM


Re: Offspring and eternal life
purpledawn writes:
I'm arguing that if it is a messianic prophecy, Jesus didn't fit the prophecy. IOW, this prophecy wasn't fulfilled through what we supposedly know of Jesus.
Realistically, we don't have the original Hebrew manuscript. The original language is a dead language. The writing has had changes made by both sides and translated by many on both sides to suit religious beliefs. We don't have a totally unadulterated version, so we can only speculate about what Isaiah was saying to his audience.
Have you compared Isaiah 53 to the Gospels?
I think jaywill gave a good rundown of how Jesus fulfilled Isaiahs prophecy in Msg 135.
Of course you are not obliged to believe it. Not many of the jews who heard the Christians preach believed either.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by purpledawn, posted 05-04-2009 11:41 AM purpledawn has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 220 of 327 (507960)
05-09-2009 8:28 AM


Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Jesus prophecy regarding the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple must have come as a shock to many and as blasphemy to many more, but did it happen according to Jesus words?
quote:
Matt 24:1 Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2In response he said to them: "Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down."
Matt 24:15-16 "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains."
Luke 19:41And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, 42saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peacebut now they have been hid from your eyes.
Luke 19:43Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected."
Luke 21:20 "Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near"
In the year 66CE the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, stood in a "holy place" namely, Jerusalem when the Roman general, Cestius Gallus, came down from Syria and surrounded Jerusalem with "encamped armies." while the Jews celebrated the Festival of Booths. He brought his armies up to the celebrating city. The Jews inside put up their defenses and inflicted some damage on the Romans but he got his troops into the city and made an attack on the temple wall, and on the sixth day they undermined the wall, the Jews most holy place. This was the time that the christian readers of the prophecy were to use discernment and begin fleeing to the mountains
For some reason Gallus withdrew from the city and retreated without inflicting further damage. This gave people time to get out of Jerusalem.
From this they were to "know that the desolating of her [Jerusalem] has drawn near." It was only a short time later at the Passover of the year 70CE that General Titus came with four legions and bottled up the Jews inside the city.
To starve out the rebellious Jews, he did what Jesus had foretold, built a fortified stockade,a fortification with pointed stakes, about five miles long all around the city, to prevent any Jews from escaping. Josephus, in his writings, vividly describes the horrors of the Roman siege and the death toll of over 1 million jews, not to mention the destruction of the temple and the city itself.
The evidence of the time of the writing of Luke is 56-58ce. I know some claim that it was written after 70Ce but that claim is unfounded and has no evidence.
Luke wrote his gospel, then later wrote another account about the early church, The book of Acts. Acts was written when Luke was with Paul who was under house arrest in Rome. Paul was awaiting to appeal his sentence before Caesar. He had already been heard by Felix, who historically ruled to approx 58CE and then he was succeeded by Porcius Festus. some scholars put him as ruler as early as 54CE, and others as late as 61CE. Historians tend to favor a time between 58 and 61CE. It was in the beginning of Festus's rule that Paul was sent to Rome.
So Luke wrote the book of Acts around this time and no later because the book finishes with Paul still awaiting his appeal. This means that Lukes first book, the Gospel, was written before Festus began to rule.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by bluescat48, posted 05-09-2009 9:04 AM Peg has replied
 Message 227 by Theodoric, posted 05-09-2009 3:27 PM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 231 of 327 (508037)
05-10-2009 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by bluescat48
05-09-2009 9:04 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
bluescat48 writes:
No evidence that Luke wrote Luke or Acts. And again you are proving nothing by using the Bible to prove itself.
Sure Luke is nowhere named in the account but ancient authorities agree that he was the writer. The Gospel is attributed to Luke in the Muratorian Fragment (c. 170CE) and was accepted by such second-century writers as Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria.
In any casew it doesnt matter who the author of the book was, the prophecies and the recorded history are the important thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by bluescat48, posted 05-09-2009 9:04 AM bluescat48 has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 232 of 327 (508038)
05-10-2009 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by John 10:10
05-09-2009 9:47 AM


Re: Confidence in Jesus continues
John10:10 writes:
The words/books of the Bible are God's love letters given to the spiritual descendants of Abraham, to those from every tribe and nation (Gen 22:18) who are willing to enter into the Lord's salvation given to lost sinners. It cannot be understood or received by any other people.
while i understand why you are saying this, i feel I have to clarify that ANYONE can become spiritual descendants of Abraham. Its not as if some are predestined to receive understanding and some will never receive it.
If someone really wants understanding, God will grant it.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 05-09-2009 9:47 AM John 10:10 has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 256 of 327 (508162)
05-11-2009 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Theodoric
05-10-2009 11:06 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Theodoric writes:
Remember extra-biblical evidence for the life and death of this Jesus guy.
the very calendar used in most parts of the world is based on the year he is thought to have been born!
Dates before that year are listed as BC, or before Christ. Dates after that year are listed as AD, or anno Domini (in the year of our Lord)
Not even the opponents of Jesus ever denied his existence.

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 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 11:06 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Huntard, posted 05-11-2009 4:21 AM Peg has replied
 Message 260 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2009 5:09 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 263 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2009 7:30 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 266 by Theodoric, posted 05-11-2009 8:56 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 257 of 327 (508163)
05-11-2009 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Theodoric
05-10-2009 6:56 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Theodoric writes:
If not then what else are we supposed to accept as evidence of prophecy fulfillment?
If you are unfamiliar about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE you can view info here
Error 404 - Livius
or here
First Jewish—Roman War - Wikipedia
Fall of Jerusalem
"the Roman armies established a permanent camp just outside the city, digging a trench around the circumference of its walls and building a wall as high as the city walls themselves around Jerusalem."
Jesus prophecy said that they 'will surround you and build a fortification of pointed stakes'
This is exactly what Titus did. He trapped the inhabitants inside the city so none could escape.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Huntard, posted 05-11-2009 4:17 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 261 of 327 (508173)
05-11-2009 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Huntard
05-11-2009 4:17 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:
There's only one tiny little problem with this prophecy.
It was written AFTER the fall of Jerusalem....
this has been discussed and it can easily be shown that the claim that the gospels were written after 70Ce is baseless.
What line of reasoning are you using?

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 262 of 327 (508174)
05-11-2009 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Huntard
05-11-2009 4:21 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:
What the hell kind of evidence is that? Just because we use a calendar based om somebody's supposed date of birth (which, even IF he existed, is a few years of), is NOT evidence he actually did exist!
then its the greatest hoax of all time

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Huntard, posted 05-11-2009 4:21 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Theodoric, posted 05-11-2009 8:59 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 270 by Huntard, posted 05-11-2009 10:03 AM Peg has replied
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 05-11-2009 10:37 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 303 of 327 (508401)
05-13-2009 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Huntard
05-11-2009 10:03 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:
Peg, could you please explain to me that how on earth using a calendar using someone's supposed date of birth is in any conceivable way ANY proof that that person actually existed?
in as much as Jesus was such a widely accepted historical person
I didnt mean to imply that the gregorian calender was based ON jesus birth, if thats what it sounded like.
I see what you are saying though. We could ask the same thing about the Julian calendar. I know we are told that Julius Caesar devised it, but how do we even know he was a real person?
So perhaps you're right, we cant really use the use of a calendar to prove someone existed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Huntard, posted 05-11-2009 10:03 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 5:30 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 304 of 327 (508402)
05-13-2009 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Percy
05-11-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
there is evidence that Jesus was a real person and not just a myth.
Apart from my 'calender' post, there is Josephus the Jewish historian. So he wasnt a christian and cannot be accused of making it up to promote a 'myth'
In his writings about the goings on in Jerusalem he wrote about a certain man, James, who was arrested by the sanhedrin.
quote:
[The high priest Ananus] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others.
This confirms that Jesus, who was called the Christ was a real historical person.
The Roman historian Tacitus, who hated Christianity wrote after about Nero's persecution of the Christians in approx 100 ce.
quote:
Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital [Rome] itself.
there is also Justin Martyr who wrote in the middle of the 2nd century about the death of Jesus:
quote:
That these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.
While the official records of Pontius Pilate no longer exist, they must have existed in the 2nd century, otherwise Justin Martyr would not have used them as evidence of what he was saying.
there is also plenty of archeological evidence that the writers, such as Luke, wrote correctly about historical people of their time. In Acts we read that Paul and Barnabas were sent to do missionary work in Cyprus and there met up with a proconsul named Sergius Paulus
In the mid 19thcentury, excavations in Cyprus uncovered an inscription dating from 55CE that mentions this very man. Of this, archaeologist G.Ernest Wright says: "It is the one reference we have to this proconsul outside the Bible and it is interesting that Luke gives us correctly his name and title."
this is just a few examples here, there is much more that provides evidence that Jesus was a real person... it should probably be for another thread though.

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 Message 271 by Percy, posted 05-11-2009 10:37 AM Percy has not replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 306 of 327 (508404)
05-13-2009 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Huntard
05-13-2009 5:30 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:
There is more evoidence that Julius existed then just that calendar, we have coins with his image, from the correct period (for example).
that may not have been his image... how do you know that it really was his image? Maybe there was no Julius Caesar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 5:30 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 6:49 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 307 of 327 (508406)
05-13-2009 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jaywill
05-11-2009 6:34 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Jaywill writes:
Is there a scenario by which someone after the Invasion of Pearl Harbor would write a fradulant history pretending that the event was in the future to the time of writing ?
Could you see someone writing a fake history of New York after the falling of the Twin Towers pretending that such an event was a prophecy to be fulfilled in the future?
What I am hearing is that the Gospel of Mark had to have been written after the temple was destroyed by the Roman army. Such a momentous event is sneakily "ignored" by the writer except for a pretended reference to its future destruction to the events being recorded.
you use really good reasoning here jaywill...well done

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2009 6:34 PM jaywill has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 308 of 327 (508407)
05-13-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by purpledawn
05-12-2009 6:31 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
purpledawn writes:
What makes you think the author of Luke was writing History?
what makes you think he wasnt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by purpledawn, posted 05-12-2009 6:31 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 9:19 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 326 of 327 (508482)
05-14-2009 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Huntard
05-13-2009 6:49 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:
Peg, there was a name on the coins as well, can you guess what that name was?
Read the wiki on him, much will become clear.
i'll grant you that,
but if we are to doubt the existence of Christ even with the evidence we have that supports his existence, such as:
the New Testament books written about him containing eye witness testimony of his life, with secular historians mentioning him by name and with historical archeological evidence to back up the things written in the bible etc
if this is not enough to prove that he existed, why should we view Julius Caesar as a historical person based on a calendar said to be made by him and some ancient coins with his name on them?
How many people are followers of Julias Caesar today? What influence does he exert in todays world?
Lets face it, if a 'real' historical person holds no meaning for the world today, how could it be that a mythical person holds SO MUCH meaning for people in todays world???
how could that even be possible? Unless of course Jesus wasnt a mythical person and his spirit is at work in the world today as he said it would be.
His parting words to his disciples were:
quote:
Matthew 28:18And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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