The Greater Miracle

You've been wrong about this before. You stated you agreed with me just before you made a statement I could never agree with. No one said subjective views are wrong. The problem with subjective approaches is that they don't lead to knowledge that is true for everyone regardless of world view. That's the advantage that science has over subjective approaches. You cannot legitimately characterize scientifically established theories as subjective in this sense.--Percy

Well I contend that there is knowledge that is true for everyone that can be reached subjectively, the only problem is that we won't know who has it, or even who has a part of it, or even if everyone is wrong.As far as the last statement is concerned I agree about "sceintifically established" theory. It's those theories out there that are established based on a completely subjective view of things that are in fact philosophical or theological that get passed off as science that I have an issue with.

And which ones are those?

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

A "meme" is as good an example as any.

Just to add to what I said. When I say that I find science and my faith complimentary I'll explain by giving a couple of examples. Christianity suggests that time had a beginning. That is consistent with modern science. I find that the "uncertainty principle is consistent with the Christian idea of free will. Does it prove anything? No, I just find it interesting.

Uncertainty has absolutely nothing to do with free will. It says that the act of measuring one aspect of a particle necessarily affects the other aspects in proportion to the accuracy of the first measurment, meaning you can't know a particle's location and velocity at great accuracy at the same time.

Yes, it is as good as any but that just show the worth of your other complaints. As you've been told a few time in the last dozen posts no one claims memes to be a scientifically established theory (or even hypothesis). They're an idea that could give cause for thought.

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It is far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men. Spock, Mirror Mirror

Hello Perdition,

quote:

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Uncertainty has absolutely nothing to do with free will. It says that the act of measuring one aspect of a particle necessarily affects the other aspects in proportion to the accuracy of the first measurment, meaning you can't know a particle's location and velocity at great accuracy at the same time.

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Yes the U.P. is the last bastion of the non-determinist. I can see how one could relate the U.P. to freewill. If the universe was deterministic then I would say freewill is just an illusion. And even though there are many scientific/academics who will refer to the quantum world as deterministic, this is moot since initial conditions can not be duplicated. In other words, If I chose to wear a particular shirt this morning, it was a choice/my free will and not because wave functions propagate in a deterministic fashion. Every behavior of the quantum world in some way does affect the macro world.
Bells Theorum and quantum entanglement are intrinsic to reality imo. So All Ye Determinist can say what you will about my will, I still choose to not chose and thereby made a choice. My 2 centavos

No, it's not. The fact that we can't measure A and B doesn't mean that A and B don't have distinct values.Quantum Mechanics as a whole could be a bastion of "free willists" but that still only comes down to probability, not so much about choice.

Ok. But I see you chose to answer me. ..."Shave and a hair cut............................................................. ..............................
ARRRRRGGHHHH!!!! "Two Bit!"
Edited by Admin, : Shorten long line.

For one thing, what makes you think I'm a determinist?I do admit that determinism makes the most sense to me, but I'm willing to admit that what makes sense to me has no bearing on reality.If we assume determinism, the fact that I responded wasn't a choice, it was something I couldn't not do because of my genetic make-up and the environment I'm currently in. This, I don't understand.Edited by Admin, : Shorten long line.

Ok I apologize for assuming you where a determinist. I for one am hoping like hell we never get all the answers. How boring life would be if all you had to do was to sit around and google shit. Peace

Determinism doesn't mean we have the answers, it just means that if we had the answers, we could predict everything. Since we will never know everything, I think you're safe, even if determinism is right.

You know that, I know that and so I imagine does every else on this forum. The fact still remains that Dawkins is considered as a writer of science, and when he goes off into areas that are meant to promote a materialistic view of the world in books that also does contain scientific facts, the lines get very blurred. In my view it is in the same category as trying to support a 6000 year old world by mixing in some legitimate science with untestable subjective theory.

And yet you repeat it as an evidence for your silly notion that science is replete with whimsy. Why don't you pop on over to a university library and see how often The Selfish Gene was cited in a scientific paper. Let me know what you find. Not to anyone who isn't doing your their best to blur the lines. But to help you out a bit: don't use popular science books from the "science" section of Barnes & Noble as your primary study of science. Your pretense that you're merely considering all sides of the "debate" is getting a bit long in the tooth. Every time someone corners you you retreat to some such statement as the above. It is clear that you have a set position. Why don't you put it to the table (In the proper venue, of course. Not a science forum.) for examination. It will die a lot quicker that way.

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It is far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men. Spock, Mirror Mirror