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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 294 of 327 (508295)
05-12-2009 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by purpledawn
05-12-2009 6:31 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
What makes you think the author of Luke was writing History?
Facts are boring. Technical manuals are boring. Writers make information interesting. The gospels weren't biographies as we understand biographies today.
Are you saying historical should be boring? You know they are "Facts" if they are related boringly?
All historical writing should be like a technical manual?
If the writer has interest and enthusiasm in in the facts then it cannot be true history?
Facts in Luke's writing have been verified in archeology. For years I heard that Luke was doubted because no "pavement" was located in Jerusalem upon which Pilate examined Jesus. Then in the 20th century the pavement was found and Luke's writing was vindicated.
In spite of the fact that Luke had a vested interest in the spread of the Christian faith he could still be a good historian. I think he encouraged his reader to verify the accuracy of the things he wrote.
I have to go now.
I know - Luke didn't write Luke, John didn't write John, Matthew didn't write Matthew, Isaiah didn't write Isaiah, Mark didn't write Mark, etc, etc,. I know what higher criticism believes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by purpledawn, posted 05-12-2009 6:31 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by purpledawn, posted 05-12-2009 8:45 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 299 of 327 (508375)
05-12-2009 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by purpledawn
05-12-2009 8:45 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
No, I'm saying, straight facts are boring. A writer adds life to the facts.
Not one of your stronger arguments Purpledawn.
The degree of "boringness" depends on the interest of the reader.
Now I think you would have to admit that the miracles recorded in the New Testament are related in a very "matter of fact" way. There is little to no theological commentary on them. There is no embellishment or begging the reader to believe. They are related in a very dry and straightforward way. You get it or you don't - periohd. Would you agree ?
One has to understand the purpose the writer's had for writing the story.
It is helpful. It need not be mandatory.
If outside records (the unvarnished facts) do not substantiate assumed facts within the story, then we have to look at the writer's intent.
Example: In Acts 527-37, the apostles were brought before the Sanhedrin. When the members got furious and wanted them put to death a Pharisee named Gamaliel addressed the Sanhedrin and said:
"Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it call came to nothing. After him Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers scattered.
We can check when the event with Theudas and Judas took place.
According to Josephus, the Theudas event took place about 44-46CE and the Judas event took place 6CE.
From the book entitled A History of the Jews, by Paul Johnson, a conservative Catholic. (Page 119)
There was a rising, led by Judas of Camala, in 6 aD, in protest at the direct rule imposed after Herod the Great's death. There was another, for similar reasons, when direct rule was restored following the death of Herod agrippa in 44 AD, led by a man called Theudas who marched down the Jordan Valley at the head of a mob.
I don't know much about this. I am willing to look more into it.
However, the following discussion is copied by permission from Glenn Miller's website on the matter. A portion of the discussion is provided:
Now, as to Theudas...
All indications lead to the belief that Josephus and Gamaliel were NOT talking about the same "Theudas".
Josephus refers to a more "troublesome" figure than does Gamaliel (Antiquities, 20.5.1.97-98). Whereas Gamaliel ascribes only 400 men to T., Josephus uses the terms "a great part of the people" and "many" [The following paragraph in Josephus recounts a massacre of over 20,000 people, so a band of only 400 would probably not be 'newsworthy' enough for Josephus to even mention. Therefore the ISBE insistence that Josephus WOULD HAVE mentioned so 'significant' an event is unwarranted.].
The terminology for the figure is likewise somewhat different: Gamaliel says T. was 'claiming to be somebody', Josephus uses the terms 'magician' and 'prophet'.
Gamaliel says that T's followers 'rallied to him' (a more political sounding term); Josephus says T.'s followers took their effects and were migrating to the river Jordan.
Gamaliel says that T. was simply killed; Josephus says T was captured and then beheaded, and the head then taken to Jerusalem.
Gamaliel says that after T was killed, "all his followers dispersed", but Josephus says that many of the followers were killed by the Roman troop of horsemen, and that many of them were likewise captured and arrested.
(Additionally, it should be noted that the scholar Origen referred to a Theudas active before the birth of Jesus as well, in Contra Celsum 1.57, although it is possible that this is simply a referral to Acts already.)
At the surface, these events look like different occasions, even though the name 'Theudas' is the same. That this would not create a prima facie case for identity, can be seen from the following considerations:
Although 'Theudas' was not a common name itself, it does show up in Jerusalem ossuaries close in time, e.g. Inscription 1255).
'Theudas' shows up in the Papyrii as hypocoristic forms (i.e. "pet" names, 'nicknames') for many Greek theophoric names (e.g. Theodotus, Theodorus, Theodotion, etc.) [New Documents Illustrating Early Christianity, vol 4.183-185], so it could refer to any number of people at the time.
At the time there was a prevalence for having both a Greek AND a Hebrew name, with the Greek name having the same or very similar meaning as the Hebrew. This pattern shows up in the Jerusalem ossuaries and the 'Goliath' family in Jericho [e.g. 'Theodorus' (gk) for 'Nathanel' (hb)]. With this in mind, 'Theudas' could be Greek for a wide range of Hebrew names: Jonathan, Nathanael, Mattathias, Hananias, Jehohanan, etc. In one case, the synagogue ruler in Ophel was listed under his alternate Greek name "Theodotus".
We do know that there were many smaller tumults in Judea after the death of Herod the Great (Josephus uses the phrase "ten thousand" in Antiquities, 17.10.4.269-8.285!), and that we do not have data on many of them. The data seems to indicate that that the two that we know of led by a 'Theudas' are NOT the same event.
Therefore, the reference by Gamaliel to the minor exploits of a Theudas was not necessarily historically illegitimate or confused.
Doesn't seem like a closed case on Luke's "error" yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by purpledawn, posted 05-12-2009 8:45 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by purpledawn, posted 05-12-2009 9:22 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 312 of 327 (508415)
05-13-2009 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Theodoric
05-13-2009 12:14 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Glenn Miller is very questionable as a source. He is obviously a committed christianist.
This is a ridiculous objection.
Why can't I say Purpledawn is very questionable as a source? Purpledawn is obviously a committed anti-Christian ?
Glen Miller is a compilier of information and well documents his compilations.
Were you expecting me to consult with the American Atheist Society for assistance on your point ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Theodoric, posted 05-13-2009 12:14 AM Theodoric has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 313 of 327 (508417)
05-13-2009 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by mark24
05-11-2009 12:51 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
In the same way that there are no protests of any of the other thousands of self proclaimed mystical god-like-spiritual-I've-got-a-hotline-to-heaven figures means they must exist? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith must be telling the truth? Mohammed was the real deal?
Are you that myopic as to not be able to see what a nonsensical thing you just posted? At least we know Joseph Smith & the likes of Mohammed were real, not so for Jesus.
We are certain that Joseph Smith and Mohammed were real historical figures.
Let's take Joseph Smith for an example since he is the more recent historical figure. Now Mormanism does have its staunch opponents. Yet to date I have not seen any deny that there ever WAS a Joseph Smith.
I would not be surprised that if 1500 years FROM now opponents of Mormonism objected that there was no Joseph Smith. They could say that records of him are mistaken, forged, Mormon conspiracy, etc. etc. etc. Just as some of you anti-Christian faith skeptics do they could do long after Smith's centries have passed.
Where in the first three centries of CE are those protesting that there never existed a Jesus of Nazareth? Such people pop up around the 18th,19th century AD (CE).
Hence you're here.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by mark24, posted 05-11-2009 12:51 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by AdminModulous, posted 05-13-2009 8:35 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 320 by mark24, posted 05-13-2009 3:09 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 316 of 327 (508426)
05-13-2009 9:23 AM


On the suubject of fulfilled prophecy.
I don't think that all events of a particular prophecy need be fulfilled at the same time for it to be validly fulfilled.
Peter says that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the 120 disciples was the fulfillment of the prophet Joel's prophecy:
"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day; But this is what is spoken through the prophet Joel - 'And it shall be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream [things] in dreams.
... And I will show wonders in heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable dau of the Lord comes.
And it shall be thqat everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:15-21 Comp. Joel 2:28-32)
One could object that since no astronomical phenomenon accompanied what occured to the early church in Jerusalem, the Pentacost event could not be the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.
That is not the only possibility though. That criticism may be according to what man holds as prioroties. It could be that in God's priorities He is delaying a portion of the fulfillment IN ORDER THAT MORE MAY BE SAVED.
Why could not the fulfillment be a gradually progressing one over a longer period of time according to God's priorities that as many people call on the name of the Lord to be saved?
I hear the objection that this would allow us to say too many happenings are partial fulfillments of Bible propecy. Yes, It possibly allows some Christians to be sloppy if they want to. That's unfortunate if they jump to generalizations recklessly, seeing prophey fulfillment in too many trivial events.
Maybe that the Bible consists of quite a bit more than predictions. Its belief is not solely dependent on prophecy fulfillment. I am not making that case that it is.
A progressive fulfilling of Joel 2:28-32 encourages some of us that we're on the right track to believe the Bible.
I am still meditating on the criteria of some here - "I want to see a prophecy fulfilled so that I need no eye of faith to accept it as fulfilled prophecy."

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 317 of 327 (508428)
05-13-2009 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Theodoric
05-11-2009 3:24 PM


Re: Final reply to Jaywill
Well you don't have to hold your breath. I have attempted to read it. But it is the same old same old, geared toward reinforcing the belief in those that are swaying away from religion or reinforcing beliefs for the christian god(they are very insulting to other religions) and against atheists. I found a great comment about the book on Amazon. I agree wholeheartedly.
You poor persecuted Atheist. You remind me of the Charlie Brown song - "WHY is Everybody Always Picking on Me?"
Okay, the title and some of the tone of the book is defensive. Please do not expect me to accept that skeptics of the Gospel cannot be provocative.
That does not mean that it is not serious. You found it uncomfortable to read because it is a pushback. Please don't ask me to believe that Bible skeptics don't provoke pushbacks by being provocative.
Anyway, Giesler repeats himself in his books. And he's written 60 of them.
Norman L. Geisler is author or coauthor of some sixty books, including The Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics and his four-volume Systematic Theology. He has taught at the university and graduate level for nearly forty years and has spoken or debated in all fifty states and in twenty-five countries. He holds a Ph.D. in philosophy from Loyola University and now serves as president of Southern Evangelical Seminary.
Why fault the man for caring to make a defense of the Christian Faith? Christian Apologetics you might find dryer or less dressed to appeal.
You know Publisher's recommend and even demand certain things be done to sell their books. That's true of books by opposers of the Christian faith and Atheists too.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Theodoric, posted 05-11-2009 3:24 PM Theodoric has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 318 of 327 (508430)
05-13-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by purpledawn
05-11-2009 8:13 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
The author has Jesus guarantee that that generation would certainly not pass away until all those things had happened. That would include the finale.
I also find the statement that "those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--never to be equaled again." to show a limited view.
In bringing His promises to pass God may not be EAGER that there would be days of distress on all mankind.
On one hand I see critics complain that the Bible's God is uncaring, unloving, harsh, and eager to punish people. Then on the other hand I see these same critics complain that there was a DELAY in all the details of the coming about of a prediction.
Can you have it both ways? How about in the prophesy God has the flexibility to mercifully allow more time for more people to come to repentence?
Critics seem to want keep both criticisms together:
1.) God is too eager to punish.
2.) God doesn't fulfill His word about calamities at one time !
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2009 8:13 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 12:11 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 321 of 327 (508459)
05-13-2009 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by purpledawn
05-13-2009 12:11 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Either the prophecy was fulfilled as spoken in the timeframe specified or it didn't. When prophecies don't come to fruition as specified and in the timeframe specified, the the message is not from God. That's God's rule, not mine.
What timeframe specified ?
Sometimes you get that such and such is to occur in the future. Often the only timeframe is the future.
Irrelevant. Again your argument is a God that changes his mind without notice,
How do you know it is a "change of mind"?
which means we can't trust what he supposedly said.
Nonsense.
He could change his mind and call the whole thing off.
You're mad because He is not a machine ? Extending the time does not have to indicate a change of mind. It may indicate mercy in some instances. The timeframe is often - simply the future.
He may have already. We'll never know.
Calamities happen no matter what mankind does.
True that calamities will happen.
But not always like those discribed in Joel.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 12:11 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 5:58 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 322 of 327 (508460)
05-13-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by mark24
05-13-2009 3:09 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Firstly, I'm not protesting that there never existed a historical Jesus, I just am forced to accept that there isn't any extra-biblical evidence that can lead me to conclude that there was such a person.
I am going to try to keep my comments along the line of prophecy fulfillment in this thread.
But I think at the root of it, Jesus seems "troublesome" to some people. So they are more willing to believe in other ancient figures who have far less historical confirmation of their existence.
Josephus wrote of "the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James ..." (Antiquities XX 9:1). There are other references. But I would like to skip up to 500 A.D. and refer to the Jew's Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedren 43a, "Eve of Passover") contains an explicit reference to Jesus -
"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshua of Nazareth) is going to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by mark24, posted 05-13-2009 3:09 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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