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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 316 of 327 (508426)
05-13-2009 9:23 AM


On the suubject of fulfilled prophecy.

I don't think that all events of a particular prophecy need be fulfilled at the same time for it to be validly fulfilled.

Peter says that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the 120 disciples was the fulfillment of the prophet Joel's prophecy:

"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day; But this is what is spoken through the prophet Joel - 'And it shall be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream [things] in dreams.

... And I will show wonders in heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable dau of the Lord comes.

And it shall be thqat everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:15-21 Comp. Joel 2:28-32)

One could object that since no astronomical phenomenon accompanied what occured to the early church in Jerusalem, the Pentacost event could not be the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.

That is not the only possibility though. That criticism may be according to what man holds as prioroties. It could be that in God's priorities He is delaying a portion of the fulfillment IN ORDER THAT MORE MAY BE SAVED.

Why could not the fulfillment be a gradually progressing one over a longer period of time according to God's priorities that as many people call on the name of the Lord to be saved?

I hear the objection that this would allow us to say too many happenings are partial fulfillments of Bible propecy. Yes, It possibly allows some Christians to be sloppy if they want to. That's unfortunate if they jump to generalizations recklessly, seeing prophey fulfillment in too many trivial events.

Maybe that the Bible consists of quite a bit more than predictions. Its belief is not solely dependent on prophecy fulfillment. I am not making that case that it is.

A progressive fulfilling of Joel 2:28-32 encourages some of us that we're on the right track to believe the Bible.

I am still meditating on the criteria of some here - "I want to see a prophecy fulfilled so that I need no eye of faith to accept it as fulfilled prophecy."


jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 317 of 327 (508428)
05-13-2009 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Theodoric
05-11-2009 3:24 PM


Re: Final reply to Jaywill
Well you don't have to hold your breath. I have attempted to read it. But it is the same old same old, geared toward reinforcing the belief in those that are swaying away from religion or reinforcing beliefs for the christian god(they are very insulting to other religions) and against atheists. I found a great comment about the book on Amazon. I agree wholeheartedly.

You poor persecuted Atheist. You remind me of the Charlie Brown song - "WHY is Everybody Always Picking on Me?"

Okay, the title and some of the tone of the book is defensive. Please do not expect me to accept that skeptics of the Gospel cannot be provocative.

That does not mean that it is not serious. You found it uncomfortable to read because it is a pushback. Please don't ask me to believe that Bible skeptics don't provoke pushbacks by being provocative.

Anyway, Giesler repeats himself in his books. And he's written 60 of them.

Norman L. Geisler is author or coauthor of some sixty books, including The Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics and his four-volume Systematic Theology. He has taught at the university and graduate level for nearly forty years and has spoken or debated in all fifty states and in twenty-five countries. He holds a Ph.D. in philosophy from Loyola University and now serves as president of Southern Evangelical Seminary.

Why fault the man for caring to make a defense of the Christian Faith? Christian Apologetics you might find dryer or less dressed to appeal.

You know Publisher's recommend and even demand certain things be done to sell their books. That's true of books by opposers of the Christian faith and Atheists too.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Theodoric, posted 05-11-2009 3:24 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 318 of 327 (508430)
05-13-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by purpledawn
05-11-2009 8:13 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
The author has Jesus guarantee that that generation would certainly not pass away until all those things had happened. That would include the finale.

I also find the statement that "those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--never to be equaled again." to show a limited view.

In bringing His promises to pass God may not be EAGER that there would be days of distress on all mankind.

On one hand I see critics complain that the Bible's God is uncaring, unloving, harsh, and eager to punish people. Then on the other hand I see these same critics complain that there was a DELAY in all the details of the coming about of a prediction.

Can you have it both ways? How about in the prophesy God has the flexibility to mercifully allow more time for more people to come to repentence?

Critics seem to want keep both criticisms together:

1.) God is too eager to punish.

2.) God doesn't fulfill His word about calamities at one time !

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2009 8:13 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 12:11 PM jaywill has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1797 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 319 of 327 (508440)
05-13-2009 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jaywill
05-13-2009 10:08 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
quote:
On one hand I see critics complain that the Bible's God is uncaring, unloving, harsh, and eager to punish people. Then on the other hand I see these same critics complain that there was a DELAY in all the details of the coming about of a prediction.
Critic's complaints aren't a part of the equation. Either the prophecy was fulfilled as spoken in the timeframe specified or it didn't. When prophecies don't come to fruition as specified and in the timeframe specified, the the message is not from God. That's God's rule, not mine.

quote:
Can you have it both ways? How about in the prophesy God has the flexibility to mercifully allow more time for more people to come to repentence?
Irrelevant. Again your argument is a God that changes his mind without notice, which means we can't trust what he supposedly said. He could change his mind and call the whole thing off. He may have already. We'll never know.

Calamities happen no matter what mankind does.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2009 10:08 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2009 4:34 PM purpledawn has responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3535 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 320 of 327 (508456)
05-13-2009 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by jaywill
05-13-2009 7:36 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
jaywill,

Where in the first three centries of CE are those protesting that there never existed a Jesus of Nazareth? Such people pop up around the 18th,19th century AD (CE).

Hence you're here.

Firstly, I'm not protesting that there never existed a historical Jesus, I just am forced to accept that there isn't any extra-biblical evidence that can lead me to conclude that there was such a person.

Secondly, where in the first three centuries after Mohammed's life were the protests that he never existed?

The point is that people protesting or not is utterly inconsequential to the question as to whether somebody actually existed, or not. That's why your point was so silly.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2009 7:36 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2009 4:57 PM mark24 has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 321 of 327 (508459)
05-13-2009 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by purpledawn
05-13-2009 12:11 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Either the prophecy was fulfilled as spoken in the timeframe specified or it didn't. When prophecies don't come to fruition as specified and in the timeframe specified, the the message is not from God. That's God's rule, not mine.

What timeframe specified ?

Sometimes you get that such and such is to occur in the future. Often the only timeframe is the future.


Irrelevant. Again your argument is a God that changes his mind without notice,

How do you know it is a "change of mind"?


which means we can't trust what he supposedly said.

Nonsense.


He could change his mind and call the whole thing off.

You're mad because He is not a machine ? Extending the time does not have to indicate a change of mind. It may indicate mercy in some instances. The timeframe is often - simply the future.


He may have already. We'll never know.
Calamities happen no matter what mankind does.

True that calamities will happen.
But not always like those discribed in Joel.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 5:58 PM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 322 of 327 (508460)
05-13-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by mark24
05-13-2009 3:09 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Firstly, I'm not protesting that there never existed a historical Jesus, I just am forced to accept that there isn't any extra-biblical evidence that can lead me to conclude that there was such a person.

I am going to try to keep my comments along the line of prophecy fulfillment in this thread.

But I think at the root of it, Jesus seems "troublesome" to some people. So they are more willing to believe in other ancient figures who have far less historical confirmation of their existence.

Josephus wrote of "the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James ..." (Antiquities XX 9:1). There are other references. But I would like to skip up to 500 A.D. and refer to the Jew's Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedren 43a, "Eve of Passover") contains an explicit reference to Jesus -

"On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshua of Nazareth) is going to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover."

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by mark24, posted 05-13-2009 3:09 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by mark24, posted 05-13-2009 5:17 PM jaywill has not yet responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3535 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 323 of 327 (508461)
05-13-2009 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by jaywill
05-13-2009 4:57 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Jaywill,

But I think at the root of it, Jesus seems "troublesome" to some people. So they are more willing to believe in other ancient figures who have far less historical confirmation of their existence.

How can you have less than zero historical confirmation? According to Wiki, Josephus lived from AD37- c100. In other words the alleged Jesus died before he was born, in other words he is as much in the dark about the existence of Jesus as I am.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1797 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 324 of 327 (508463)
05-13-2009 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by jaywill
05-13-2009 4:34 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
quote:
What timeframe specified ?

Sometimes you get that such and such is to occur in the future. Often the only timeframe is the future.


We aren't talking about prophecy in general. See Message 279 and Message 287. We've been talking about a specific NT prophecy supposedly concerning the destruction of the temple. The show stopper on that prophecy is the following statement supposedly made by Jesus.

Mark 13:30
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

As I said before, the statement concerns the generation the disciples could see in front of them, so to speak.

So the prophecy has a time limit.

quote:
You're mad because He is not a machine ? Extending the time does not have to indicate a change of mind. It may indicate mercy in some instances. The timeframe is often - simply the future.
I'm not the one who has a problem with saying that all was not fulfilled in that prophecy within the timeframe alotted. We can make up any amount of possible excuses for why it didn't. What good is that?

Bottomline: The straightforward plain text doesn't refer to the future or anything other than the generation at the time of the destruction. You haven't shown me otherwise.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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 Message 325 by Cedre, posted 05-14-2009 5:03 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Cedre
Member (Idle past 259 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 325 of 327 (508477)
05-14-2009 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by purpledawn
05-13-2009 5:58 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Mark 13:30
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

As I said before, the statement concerns the generation the disciples could see in front of them, so to speak.

So the prophecy has a time limit.

Not so fast purpledawn! Looking assiduously at these verses reveal that Jesus was not alluding to the generation of his day that is the generation that he was speaking in; a careful reading of Luke 21:29-30, Mark 13:28-30, Matthew 24:32-33 will make this plain; instead Jesus was referring to the generation that will see the signs of his second coming happening. It’s easy to spot this if you refrain from reading the verses containing the generation quote in isolation and instead read it in tandem with the foregoing verses.

Let’s consider Mark 13:28-30 to bear out this point.

Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh; even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation (The generation that knows that summer is nigh after witnessing the signs) shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished.
(Mar 13:28-30)

The point of importance here is our understanding of the phrase ‘This generation’, what did Jesus denote by it? If he was talking about his generation, specifically the generation of the apostles then his prophecy has terribly failed since all of the things he mentioned would take place has not taken place yet, but the alternative interpretation as I have pointed out already is that Jesus was alluding to a distant generation that is the generation in which the signs he mentioned will start to materialize.

This interpretation has the support of the entire chapter; specifically Jesus provides qualifying statements like Mark 13:10 which state that the gospel must first be published among all nations before the signs can start to unfold. Therefore it is clear that these passages DO NOT refer to the generation Jesus was speaking in at the time or any other generation other than the generation that will witness the signs mentioned.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 326 of 327 (508482)
05-14-2009 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Huntard
05-13-2009 6:49 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:

Peg, there was a name on the coins as well, can you guess what that name was?

Read the wiki on him, much will become clear.

i'll grant you that,

but if we are to doubt the existence of Christ even with the evidence we have that supports his existence, such as:
the New Testament books written about him containing eye witness testimony of his life, with secular historians mentioning him by name and with historical archeological evidence to back up the things written in the bible etc

if this is not enough to prove that he existed, why should we view Julius Caesar as a historical person based on a calendar said to be made by him and some ancient coins with his name on them?

How many people are followers of Julias Caesar today? What influence does he exert in todays world?

Lets face it, if a 'real' historical person holds no meaning for the world today, how could it be that a mythical person holds SO MUCH meaning for people in todays world???

how could that even be possible? Unless of course Jesus wasnt a mythical person and his spirit is at work in the world today as he said it would be.

His parting words to his disciples were:

quote:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 444 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 327 of 327 (508483)
05-14-2009 6:29 AM


Closing time
We are good way past 300 posts.

There are a number of splinter topics in the formation here. If you wish to discuss them please start a new thread. If anybody wants to discuss any issues surrounding prophecy, including those outlined in the OP, please start a new topic - thanks.


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