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Author Topic:   Why is the Intelligent Designer so inept?
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 321 of 352 (509223)
05-19-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by traderdrew
05-19-2009 11:36 AM


Re: Look Who's Grasping at Straws
Going back to the vertebrate eye, a trade off was necessary.
There doesn't have to be a trade off. The cephalopod eye works just fine with a forward facing retina. Go here for more information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by traderdrew, posted 05-19-2009 11:36 AM traderdrew has not replied

Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 322 of 352 (509226)
05-19-2009 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by traderdrew
05-18-2009 7:46 PM


Re: On the Topic
I don't see how you think I called the mammalian eye a dead end when first of all, I didn't write all of that post and second of all, that was Tag's post saying that there was no evolutionary way to correct the inherent flaw. Tag didn't state that it was an evolutionary dead end.You guys are making me think so I thought that I would create a question that makes you evolutionists think.
Your question was simply misguided.
It was either in this thread or in another where I talked about stages of development being built on top of one another. This is another case of just that. The inverted retina is one of the earliest stages of development. Since it's evolution this stage has been built upon by other stages. Because of this it is very, very difficult to change the earliest stages of development without disturbing the entire system.
This is by no means an "evolutionary dead end". It is a foundation upon which further evolutionary adaptations have been built. Once these changes become the foundation they are really, really hard to change through evolutionary mechanisms.
And I also notice that you completely avoided my Bill Gates analogy. I think it is obvious to everyone that putting the wires in front of the light path is just wrong. It is a clear case of ineptitude. This is made even plainer when cameras (or eyes) have been designed with the wires exiting out the back of the photoreceptors.
The idea that the creator should’ve or would’ve created perfect systems overlooks the possibility of multiple motives and the possibility that perfection wouldn’t serve at least one of those motives. It may also not consider some possible theological ramifications that we may or may not understand.
So the designer was purposefully inept? I coach little league baseball. I can cheer for a kid who tries his hardest but doesn't make a play. However, I absolutely hate it when kids don't try and make bad plays. What you are describing is a designer who just isn't trying.

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 Message 313 by traderdrew, posted 05-18-2009 7:46 PM traderdrew has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Blue Jay, posted 05-19-2009 2:12 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 325 of 352 (509243)
05-19-2009 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Blue Jay
05-19-2009 2:12 PM


Re: On the Topic
Bluejay writes:
But, would you make something perfect if imperfection could work well enough to accomplish whatever it is that you intended it to accomplish? Economically, it doesn't make sense.
That would imply that the designer is limited in both time and resources. For an all knowing, all powerful supernatural deity who lives in a realm outside of time and space this wouldn't seem to be the case. Making something perfect or imperfect would take the same amount of non-effort. Also, you wouldn't think that such a being would need to make "trade-offs", especially given the fact that this same designer was able to make the cephalopod eye without these trad-offs.

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 Message 323 by Blue Jay, posted 05-19-2009 2:12 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Coragyps, posted 05-19-2009 5:16 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 328 by Blue Jay, posted 05-19-2009 10:15 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 329 of 352 (509268)
05-19-2009 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Blue Jay
05-19-2009 10:15 PM


Re: On the Topic
Bluejay writes:
So far, Drew hasn't made it clear what his views about the Intelligent Designer's power is: judging by his comments, I think it's safe to say he believes his god does not have the power to wave away tradeoffs.
Good point.
So if we are to judge the designer by the design (assuming a single designer) we can come to two strong conclusions.
1. The designer is not all knowing nor all powerful. Using eyes as an example, the designer learned from it's mistakes with the backwards retina of vertebrates and perfected the design in cephalopods.
2. The designer chose to insert inept designs on purpose, and arbitrarily. Going back to the eyes, the designer knew that the backwards facing retina would cut down on light capturing and resolution but decided to do it anyway.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Theodoric, posted 05-19-2009 10:48 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 331 by Coyote, posted 05-19-2009 11:16 PM Taq has replied

Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 332 of 352 (509309)
05-20-2009 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Coyote
05-19-2009 11:16 PM


Re: On whatever is left of the Topic
Coyote writes:
Given these observations, what scientific evidence is there that there is one designer, vs. no designer or multiple designers?
In a similar thread I proposed that there was a designer for each species. The designing was done in a "Chinese Telegraph" type of system where each species was handed off to the next designer who then made a new species in complete isolation from other designers and other designs. Also, each designer is limited to about a 0.5% change in DNA. This is the only way I can see that a design scheme can produce the nested hierarchy that we see.
In this scenario, the number of inept designers goes down. An inept design that is not immediately fixed will become standard in that design pathway so it only requires one inept designer out of every 20 or so. At the same time, if each designer is isolated they can not make changes that will take several "speciation" events to come to fruition. This means that a designer can not make a 0.5% DNA change towards a forward facing vertebrate eye if the total DNA change needed is 20%.
And to summarize the topic: Why is the Intelligent Designer so inept?
Answer: It is the IDers who are inept. They are pretending to do science while believing exactly the opposite of what science and the scientific method require.
They are trying to pound a square peg through a round hole. I agree.

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 338 of 352 (509420)
05-21-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by traderdrew
05-21-2009 11:54 AM


Re: On the Topic
traderdrew writes:
I can't prove this but it is possible the verted retina of the vertebrate eye does a much better job in protecting it from radiation damage. Since many of those invertebrates live underwater, salt water tends to filter out radiation at the surface.
If this were true then we would expect fish to have the same type of eye as squid, but they don't. Fish have the same inverted retina that terrestrial tetrapods have. That is why it is called the VERTEBRATE eye, the eye that evolved in the ancestral lineage of all vertebrates.
And this adds another observation that you must explain. Why would a designer be forced to use the same eye for every animal that also has a backbone? Why is there this relationship between bones in the back and the eye? Wouldn't a designer be free to mix and match eyes and bones?

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 Message 337 by traderdrew, posted 05-21-2009 11:54 AM traderdrew has not replied

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