Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is belief in God or the Bible necessary to believe in a massive flood.
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 110 (509521)
05-22-2009 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Granny Magda
05-22-2009 8:31 AM


Re: Cedar forests
quote:
Barely seems worth writing "Mutate or Survive" for such a brief message
But on the other hand seems like an epic for Gilgamesh.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Granny Magda, posted 05-22-2009 8:31 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 92 of 110 (509522)
05-22-2009 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Peg
05-22-2009 8:41 AM


Then perhaps you might restrict yourself to saying that the cedar was real, instead of trying to use it to prove other matters. Your assertion, to which I took exception, was that the cedar provided evidence that Solomon was real, which is clearly ludicrous.
The cedars don't provide evidence of Solomon, they only provide evidence that the Bible authors knew the region, something that no sane commentator would deny.
Interestingly, Wikipedia has this to say on the Lebanese cedar;
The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh designates the cedar groves of Lebanon as the dwelling of the gods to where Gilgamesh ventured.
So is this evidence that Gilgamesh was real? Or are you going to stop being silly?

oh, and Lucy?
Do you have anything of substance to say? Only I have things to do and I'm not planning on hanging around all afternoon waiting for you to make sense...
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : Added reply to lucytheape.
Edited by Granny Magda, : Typo.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Peg, posted 05-22-2009 8:41 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Peg, posted 05-22-2009 9:01 AM Granny Magda has not replied
 Message 96 by LucyTheApe, posted 05-22-2009 9:12 AM Granny Magda has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 93 of 110 (509524)
05-22-2009 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by PaulK
05-22-2009 8:45 AM


Paulk writes:
Yes. All your examples dealing with events prior to those described in 1 Samuel (to use an semi-arbitrary cut-off point) had little bearing on the accuracy of the Bible. For instance the existence of Ur - a major city that lasted a long time - has little bearing on the truthfulness of the Bible stories about Abraham.
the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times
compare the bible to other 'real' myths and legends and the difference will be glaringly obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 05-22-2009 8:45 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by PaulK, posted 05-22-2009 9:06 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 98 by Coragyps, posted 05-22-2009 10:41 AM Peg has replied
 Message 109 by Brian, posted 06-03-2009 3:20 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 94 of 110 (509526)
05-22-2009 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Granny Magda
05-22-2009 8:55 AM


in terms of the accuracy of the bible as a book of fact and history, i will not stop being 'silly'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Granny Magda, posted 05-22-2009 8:55 AM Granny Magda has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 95 of 110 (509528)
05-22-2009 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Peg
05-22-2009 8:58 AM


quote:
the question ppl have to ask themselves is would a book of myth and legend contain so many real places and people and dates and times
The question people have to ask themselves is why you insist on engaging in misepresentation, despite all the warnings I've given.
As I stated in this thread the Bible is a collection of works which have to be judged individually.
The only book that I described as myth and legend was Genesis.
Unsurprisingly very few of your examples have anything to do with Genesis, and those that do contain few people that can be confirmed to be real. And of course, place names tend to persist. Are we to believe that the Egyptian story of Osiris is not myth because the river Nile really exists ?
quote:
compare the bible to other 'real' myths and legends and the difference will be glaringly obvious
Do so with an honest and fair eye - and without misrepresenting my position - and you will see that I am right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Peg, posted 05-22-2009 8:58 AM Peg has not replied

LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 110 (509530)
05-22-2009 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Granny Magda
05-22-2009 8:55 AM


Granny writes:
that Solomon was real, which is clearly ludicrous
It's ludicrous that Solomon existed, yeh?
Thanks Granny have a sleep now.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Granny Magda, posted 05-22-2009 8:55 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Granny Magda, posted 05-22-2009 11:29 AM LucyTheApe has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 97 of 110 (509533)
05-22-2009 9:28 AM


Is Any Of This On Topic Any More?
I just wondered ...
The questions in the OP seem to have gotten swamped.

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 98 of 110 (509548)
05-22-2009 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Peg
05-22-2009 8:58 AM


compare the bible to other 'real' myths and legends and the difference will be glaringly obvious
Hmmm...that might be worth a thread - a comparison of the Iliad and Odyssey, with all the Real Places they mention, to the Pentateuch. I don't see a "glaringly obvious" difference, Peg. Where is it?

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Peg, posted 05-22-2009 8:58 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Peg, posted 05-23-2009 12:18 AM Coragyps has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 99 of 110 (509551)
05-22-2009 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by LucyTheApe
05-22-2009 9:12 AM


Dr A is right; this thread has lost touch with it's topic. I just can't let this slide though.
LucyTheApe writes:
It's ludicrous that Solomon existed, yeh?
Must you insist upon quote-mining me? I thought Christians weren't suppose to give false witness?
For the record, here is what I said;
Granny writes:
Your assertion, to which I took exception, was that the cedar provided evidence that Solomon was real, which is clearly ludicrous.
Quote mining someone is always pathetic, but doing it when the full quote is only up the page for all to see is both pathetic and incompetent.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by LucyTheApe, posted 05-22-2009 9:12 AM LucyTheApe has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 100 of 110 (509558)
05-22-2009 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coyote
05-21-2009 10:12 PM


Re: To return to the topic... Or try to.
I presented good solid evidence upthread that there was no global flood about 4,350 years ago, and the discussion ever since has been about mythical and semi-mythical people and events.
http://EvC Forum: Is belief in God or the Bible necessary to believe in a massive flood. -->EvC Forum: Is belief in God or the Bible necessary to believe in a massive flood.
You do realize, don't you, that if my information is correct that there is no need to deal with Egypt, an exodus, or any of those other topics.
If my information is correct it is conclusive evidence that there was no flood about 4,350 years ago. Game over.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 05-21-2009 10:12 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Peg, posted 05-23-2009 12:21 AM Coyote has replied
 Message 106 by slevesque, posted 05-24-2009 3:57 AM Coyote has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 101 of 110 (509597)
05-22-2009 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by slevesque
05-19-2009 3:52 AM


Fruchtenbaum
I am still wondering if you can explain what Fruchtenbaum has anything to do with anything. You paint him as a great expert on jewish history and transcription. Why do you have this belief? Nothing in his academic history shows he is a great expert. According to his website
he studied archaeology, ancient history, historical geography, and Hebrew at the American Institute of Holy Land Studies and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
But he does not have a degree in any of this. His B.A. is in Hebrew and Greek. It takes much more than a BA to be considered an expert in a subject. His MA is in Theology. Yes he does have a PH.D. and it is funny he doesnt state what the PH.D course of study is.
It does say this
The completion of his dissertation, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology, was the culmination of 13 years of research for which he earned his Ph.D. at New York University in 1989.
This sure makes it seem like his PH.D. was in a subject like history, Israel or hebrew studies or something similar. Not it isn't.
According to NYU "Dr. Fruchtenbaum's concentration was Pastors, Missionaries & Other Religious Leaders in Churches, Schls & Denominations."
So again I need to ask, why are you holding him up as some great expert on the subject? I know he has a number of books. Notice how all the books are published by his own organization. I would think if his arguments were compelling and well thought of he would not have to self-publish.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by slevesque, posted 05-19-2009 3:52 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by slevesque, posted 05-24-2009 3:51 AM Theodoric has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 102 of 110 (509620)
05-23-2009 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Coragyps
05-22-2009 10:41 AM


Coragyps writes:
that might be worth a thread - a comparison of the Iliad and Odyssey, with all the Real Places they mention, to the Pentateuch.
i look forward to it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Coragyps, posted 05-22-2009 10:41 AM Coragyps has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 103 of 110 (509621)
05-23-2009 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Coyote
05-22-2009 12:09 PM


Re: To return to the topic... Or try to.
Coyote writes:
If my information is correct it is conclusive evidence that there was no flood about 4,350 years ago. Game over.
im intrigued by your statement...'If my information is correct'...
does this mean your information may not be correct?
or is it game over whether your information is correct or not???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Coyote, posted 05-22-2009 12:09 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Coyote, posted 05-23-2009 12:36 AM Peg has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 104 of 110 (509623)
05-23-2009 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Peg
05-23-2009 12:21 AM


Re: To return to the topic... Or try to.
im intrigued by your statement...'If my information is correct'...
does this mean your information may not be correct?
or is it game over whether your information is correct or not???
That's the way we address things in science. We don't make dogmatic statements; we leave that to the TRVE believers.
Rather we present our data and let others try to replicate it. In this case our data and data from another researcher showed the same thing. More recently a third researcher in our area has found the same results as well. And, our results are matched literally all over the world by other researchers. There are literally thousands of examples now of DNA remaining the same from before to after 4,350 years ago.
The conclusion we can reach is that there was no worldwide flood about 4,350 years ago.
But if you have scientific evidence to the contrary, present it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Peg, posted 05-23-2009 12:21 AM Peg has not replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 105 of 110 (509716)
05-24-2009 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Theodoric
05-22-2009 5:38 PM


Re: Fruchtenbaum
I said he was one of the greatest scholars alive. Obviously, it is a very subjective thing. How do you compare scholars ? I surely don't know. It was my personnal opinion on him. You may disagree.
Besides, I didn't say he was an expert on jewish transcription method. I said ''he must know a thing or two'' if I recall correctly. Nonetheless I would think he knows just about everything about jewish history, including their transcription method. Even though he may not have any official study on this. He came three times where I live, and all he does is read,read,read and translate,translate,translate. He must sleep like 2 hours a day.
Nonetheless, I agree it was a bit off-topic. But when I read someone say that 'ancient jewish transcription methods were accurate' was a lie christians just tell amongst themsleves, I was like ''WTF how can someone seriously say that ?'' because I was remembering all the things Fruchtenbaum had said on this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2009 5:38 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Theodoric, posted 05-24-2009 11:27 AM slevesque has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024