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Author Topic:   human tails and the midriff - hiccups, what are the creatonist theories about them?
Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 4934 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 4 of 79 (509584)
05-22-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sywen
05-22-2009 11:57 AM


I don't mean this in any condescending way, but you've brought up a valid point that has been made time and time again.
There are elements of "poor design" found in pretty much every organism that are the result of body plans being limited by the body plans of their ancestors.
So far, the creationists have no real answer to those problems except for saying, "that the way God wanted to do it. There are certain obstacles that God wants us to overcome. Etc, etc, etc." For them, the traits that work really well are "evidence of design" and the traits that are redundant or sub-optimal are that way "because God didn't want to make life too easy." There's really no logical way to argue against this beyond trying to point out the fallacies of their logic, because no amount of biological evidence will suffice.

We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sywen, posted 05-22-2009 11:57 AM sywen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Son, posted 05-22-2009 4:36 PM Stagamancer has replied

  
Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 4934 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 6 of 79 (509616)
05-22-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Son
05-22-2009 4:36 PM


This way, they can justify anything (I even heard religious people justifying rapes by priests with the fall)./
As well as Katrina, 9/11, and the Holocaust.

We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Son, posted 05-22-2009 4:36 PM Son has not replied

  
Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 4934 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 23 of 79 (518962)
08-10-2009 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by slevesque
08-10-2009 2:04 AM


I mean, seeing the many advantages that it would have brought us to have a functionnal tale which could act as a 'third hand', why would any of ancestors who would have lost his tail, or have a shorter one, been advantaged by natural selection ?
This is a bit of a humoristic question, but an answer is needed. Becuase you can't claim that we have lost a tail through evolution without saying why evolution would have made us lose it.
You're assuming that the ancestor of great apes and monkeys had a prehensile tail, but do you even know this to be true? It's quite possible that the prehensile tail evolved after the split between monkeys and apes. In fact, only New World monkeys have prehensile tails. Old World monkeys do not, and neither do lemurs. It could very well be that the tail that the great apes "lost" was no more useful than any other tail you'd find on a cat or a dog. Useful, for certain things, but perhaps not useful enough to be selected for in that lineage, and definitely no third hand.
Edited by Stagamancer, : No reason given.

We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by slevesque, posted 08-10-2009 2:04 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by slevesque, posted 08-10-2009 5:27 AM Stagamancer has replied

  
Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 4934 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 26 of 79 (519009)
08-10-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by slevesque
08-10-2009 5:27 AM


Well, I'm not primatologist, but seeing as how only new world monkeys have a prehensile tail and no old world primates do, it would be pretty weird if the ancestor of both lines had a prehensile tail, wouldn't it?
I'm not saying the tail of a dog isn't useful to dogs, but they use it mostly for balance while running on all fours. The great apes don't really do this, so they haven't maintained a tail. However, other primates, such as baboons that do run on all four regularly, still do have a tail.

We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by slevesque, posted 08-10-2009 5:27 AM slevesque has not replied

  
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