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Author Topic:   Is Evolution Reversible
doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 1 of 49 (508976)
05-17-2009 7:08 PM


The local variation in a population is reversible (micro-evolution) but is macro-evolution reversible? Obviously not exactly but if conditions changed then would evolution back-track?
Evolution doesn't have a direction so surely it is possible for it to go backwards?

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 Message 16 by Taq, posted 05-20-2009 11:30 AM doc has replied
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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 7 of 49 (509059)
05-18-2009 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Coragyps
05-18-2009 9:33 AM


Yes I understand that it would be almost impossible (but not impossible) to retrace exactly.
However my question is really asking "are the previous versions lost or are they still possible". It should be easier to loose "advantages" rather than to gain them.
Microevolution is "reversible" but how far back can it go?
Ok so I know some people will say that evolution always goes forwards (like time) which is true but I'm asking if conditions changed then would the path be retraced if that gave a benefit. It would be "easier" to do this than to find a different solution (if an old solution worked then use it).

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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 13 of 49 (509179)
05-19-2009 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
05-18-2009 6:30 PM


RAZD:
Walking sticks regained flight after 50 million years of winglessness
Maxwell and his collaborators at Brigham Young University discovered that some species lost the ability to fly at one point of their evolution and then re-evolved it 50 million years later.
And it is not just ONE such instance, but several.
Walkingstick insects originally started out as wingless insects (blue at start and top row). That diversified.
And some of them gained wings (red). And diversified.
And some of them lost wings (blue again). And diversified.
And one of those gained wings again (Lapaphus parakensis, below, red again).
Is that what you are looking for?
Yes it's a good example.
Ok let me see if I can explain this.
Looking at your diagram......
You said that they started of at the top left as wingless.....however it appears that they started as winged and "immediately" lost their wings. The first winged version appears to be in existence today (top right).
From your text it seems that the loss of wings occurred over 50 million years ago.
It appears to me that those versions that regained their wings were not evolving wings but were "switching" them back on.
I think there's one example in the diagram where they then lost the wings again after regaining them.
Loosing wings is not just as simple as first would seem (the interfaces at the wing root need to change).
So it looks to me like there were two options available right from the start of your diagram.........wings and wingless. These options carried on right to today and at different stages the options were turned on (I don't think wings or wingless re-evolved).
Hence it looks like the options remained for 50 million years.
So what I'm saying is that even after 50 million years it is possible to "backtrack". I don't think that any of the changes (winged to wingless) was a new evolution but rather a switching on of two mutually exclusive options. I think if the wings or wingless options had to re-evolve then they would have been significantly different to anything that had been in existence before (is evolution repeatable....I don't think so).
I guess that asks the question........how much is "mutation" and how much of what we see is switching on or off of options?

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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 18 of 49 (509754)
05-24-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taq
05-20-2009 11:30 AM


Taq writes:
French and the other Romance Languages "evolved" from Latin. Would you expect the French language to slowly change over time so that it sounds more and more like Latin? Of course not, right? The evolution of biological life is no different.
Language "evolution" and the evolution of living things is not the same and it's not really a valid comparison.

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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 19 of 49 (509757)
05-24-2009 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
05-19-2009 8:17 PM


RAZD writes:
You can turn a feature off by blocking or removing any part of the development critical to the formation of wings, and this would likely leave you with the same original feature that the wings evolved from, plus some genes inherited while winged that are not removed. Thus if a new by-pass is evolved to get around the blocked or removed part it would allow necessarily similar wings to evolve - it would be preadapted to form similar wings.
RAZD writes:
How much is "significantly different"?
Would it not still be working from the same basic features that were there when the wings first evolved? If I remove a sprinkler from the end of my hose I am still capable of watering the lawn, and I can put another sprinkler on the same hose.
I'm not sure whether your example was over 50M years or 50k years as you've suggested both.
However if it's 50M then I'd suggest that it's very unlikely for a wing to re-evolve. When a feature is "lost" then the chances of it being duplicated closely is too high imo to be realistic. If it's very, very unlikely for evolution to go "backwards" then it's also very, very unlikely for it to follow the same steps and end up with the "same" solution. Evolution has no foresight - random mutation would not result in a feature re-evolving so there must be some memory involved. That's why I suggested there was a "switch" that "turns" wings or wingless on.
If you lost the sprinkler from the end of your hose then the chances of another sprinkler occurring due to evolution would be almost impossible unless there were only a reduced number of possible options available.

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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 25 of 49 (509874)
05-25-2009 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
05-25-2009 12:39 PM


RAZD writes:
That the vein patterns in the wings are the same means that the vein pattern is not lost, ... but then this is the vein pattern in the part when it is NOT a wing as well as when it IS a wing. But the question remains: if the wing is turned OFF by one mutation, and then later is turned ON, then is this a new mutation of a new ON switch, or is this a new mutation that reverses the mutation that turns the wing OFF? It is entirely possible that both could occur.
I think it's more probable that the information is not lost and hence in this case evolution can reverse something that was done millions of years ago.
You mentioned lack of imagination........well I can imagine many many ways that a problem could be addressed and if evolution is random (with selection) then I think that if a wing was "lost" then another competing feature could evolve to replace it. Using the same solutions does not imply randomness.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Blue Jay, posted 05-26-2009 1:13 PM doc has replied
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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 26 of 49 (509875)
05-25-2009 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
05-25-2009 2:47 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
TWell, it depends on how you interpret the question. I don't think he means: "could evolution go against natural selection?"
No I mean that it can reverse previous evolution as in RAZD's example. You can always argue that evolution like time does not go backwards but I meant that features could be dropped and reused. I'm not sure how far back this could go but RAZD's example implies millions of years.

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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 29 of 49 (509983)
05-26-2009 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Blue Jay
05-26-2009 1:13 PM


Bluejay writes:
So, in your mind, what caused the trait to disappear the first time?
If no information was lost, then what made the walking-sticks' wings stop growing?
I don't know. Maybe there was some breeding between two types??? However I think the traits remained in the population and if that's true then maybe evolution could regress.

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doc
Junior Member (Idle past 5438 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-17-2009


Message 31 of 49 (509992)
05-26-2009 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Perdition
05-26-2009 2:48 PM


Perdition writes:
Who said it's the same solution? Just because they look similar doesn't mean they are duplicates. Evolution, and natural selection in particular, are still constrained by the laws of physics. If selection is moving towards a flying model, the ultimate "design" is going to necessarily resemble the original flying model despite having, perhaps, an entirely different set of genes creating the apparatus.
How does selection determine a flying model?
Evolution does not have any "knowledge" and hence even if a "flying model" was better, evolution couldn't end up with an almost identical result through random mutation.

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