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Author Topic:   coded information in DNA
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 13 of 334 (509931)
05-26-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


WordBeLogos,
2- All codes are created by a conscious mind, there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
Let's be more specific, all codes are made by man.
3- Therefore DNA was designed by man.
This is as correct as your logic, yet I suspect you wouldn't accept the resulting conclusion. Why? Because assumption 2 is untenable, you simply don't know that codes are made exclusively by intelligence.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 23 of 334 (510017)
05-26-2009 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 4:30 PM


WordBeLogos,
Definition of coded information - a system of symbols used by an encoding/ decoding mechanism which transmits a message representing a idea, plan or instructions etc., that are independent of the communication medium.
And the only "known" examples of a code are man-made, thus removing god from the equation.
Oops...Back to the drawing board.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 4:30 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 7:44 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 29 of 334 (510023)
05-26-2009 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 7:44 PM


WordBeLogos,
But man didn't make the coded information in DNA
But he must of, your logic requires that conclusion. We have no evidence whatsoever of gods, let alone ever ever ever seeing them create something, so again, your logic rules out deities.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 7:44 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 8:21 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 32 of 334 (510027)
05-26-2009 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 8:21 PM


WordBeLogos,
Only that it is the only known available explanation.
Nope, it could have evolved. This is why your overreliance on premise #2 is flawed, leading you to a similarly flawed conclusion. There was a phylogeny based on the genetic code (try as I might I can't find the thing) & it's variants, & guess what? It matched the accepted phylogeny of life. Such congruence is evidence that it did evolve. Do you have evidence it was created?
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 8:21 PM WordBeLogos has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 49 of 334 (510352)
05-30-2009 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by WordBeLogos
05-30-2009 7:00 AM


WordBeLogos,
The problem with that is that for anything to evolve according to Darwinian evolution it must be able to reproduce to make copies of itself. John Von Neumann determined almost 50 years ago that any self-replicating machine must first have a code to represent the structure to be built. Without a code, there is no evolution.
What about a self replicator with "no code", one that merely reproduces copies of itself? Essentially such a molecule would be the code, even if it coded for nothing more than itself initially with errors, of course.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-30-2009 7:00 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 138 of 334 (510850)
06-04-2009 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 7:38 PM


Double post
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-03-2009 7:38 PM WordBeLogos has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 139 of 334 (510851)
06-04-2009 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 7:38 PM


WordBeLogos,
If you believe a naturalistic explanation is possible, that's fine. Can you please present the empirical data supporting that explanation?
Right after you present evidence that a supernatural explanation is responsible. All you have done so far is assert that a natural explanation is impossible.
What we do know, without dispute, is that all codes we do know the origin of are designed by a intelligence. 100% of our experience tells us that naturalistic causes do not produce codes.
Fallacy of Composition.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-03-2009 7:38 PM WordBeLogos has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 181 of 334 (511117)
06-06-2009 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by WordBeLogos
06-06-2009 6:26 AM


WordBeLogos,
What we do know, without dispute, is that all codes we do know the origin of are designed by a intelligence. 100% of our experience tells us that naturalistic causes do not produce codes.
Fallacy of Composition. Please respond to this.
percy writes:
The only kind of properties and processes we've ever observed in the universe are all natural
WBL writes:
Correct, of which none are known to produce coded information systems.
All codes, where the origin is known are natural. Unless humans are supernatural all of a sudden? We are a part of the universe, & anything we do is as natural as a beaver's dam, as a bees hive, as a birds nest. Humans aren't an exception, all codes made by humans are therefore natural in origin.
Given that this is the case, please respond to the "logic" that mirrors your own that states that we have not observed a code that is not natural in origin, therefore all codes are natural in origin.
You can't expect to progress in this discussion, or convince anyone of anything without addressing the flaws in your own logic. If the logic that states all known codes have an intelligent origin, therefore all codes have an intelligent origin is sound, then the argument regarding natural origins of codes, above, is also sound. And this means you have a serious problem with your reasoning, fallacy of composition aside.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-06-2009 6:26 AM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 3:46 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 191 of 334 (511365)
06-09-2009 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by WordBeLogos
06-09-2009 9:17 AM


WordBeLogos,
DNA being a coded information system is the evidence Percy. Just as matter and energy are never observed to be destroyed or created, coded information systems are NEVER observed to be the product of processes absent of intelligence. NEVER. Unless you have an example?
Being ignored & just having you restate the same argument is getting tired, mate.
As I & others have pointed out, all codes where we observe the originator are derived from natural sources. By your own logic this rules out god. But as I've pointed out, this is a logical fallacy & I only point it out to illustrate the silliness of your own logic.
You observed a code in nature. The question then becomes is it designed or did it occur naturally? Well, there's shedloads of evidence showing that humans evolved. This clearly means that codes do ultimately result from evolved natural sources. We evolved the capacity as an emergent property of our brains the ability to invent codes & language.Variations to the Universal Genetic Code actually maps to phylogenies derived from other datasets, meaning we have evidence that the genetic code itself actually evolves. Scroll down to p51.
Do we have any evidence that it was designed, other than your flawed logic? No. Do we have evidence it has evolved? Yes.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 9:17 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Dr Jack, posted 06-09-2009 2:10 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 193 of 334 (511374)
06-09-2009 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dr Jack
06-09-2009 2:10 PM


Dammit, you're right, objection withdrawn.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dr Jack, posted 06-09-2009 2:10 PM Dr Jack has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 203 of 334 (511417)
06-09-2009 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by WordBeLogos
06-09-2009 3:46 PM


WordBeLogos,
This is the question mark, is code natural? If you think so, all you need is one example of a code that doesn't come from a mind.
Every code where we are aware of the origin of that code, are all natural. Every single one. What YOU need is an unnatural one. All minds we are aware of are natural, too. So if a mind made DNA it must be natural & of this universe! All you need is one supernatural mind, JUST ONE! For the purposes of this discussion we are juxtaposing "natural" with "supernatural", anything of this universe is natural, anything that comes from outside it is supernatural. As I and others have pointed out, something created by humans is natural, it was created 100% within this universe. If a bees hive is natural, or a beavers dam, then so is anything made by man.
Moreover, you have juxtaposed "natural" with "not intelligently created", which is incorrect. You should juxtapose natural with supernatural, or intelligently created with not intelligently created. This is why the following makes no sense:
mark writes:
Given that this is the case, please respond to the "logic" that mirrors your own that states that we have not observed a code that is not natural in origin, therefore all codes are natural in origin.
WBL writes:
This is the question mark, is code natural? If you think so, all you need is one example of a code that doesn't come from a mind.
You haven't addressed the issue. You have just muddied the water by confusing "natural" with " notintelligently created".
But the natural origins of codes is not sound. You are assuming the thing in question.
I am not assuming anything in my logic that you are not.
My logic is as sound as yours, please show me what part of my logic is wrong:
Premise 1: All codes where the origin is known have natural origins. Bar none.
Premise 2: DNA has a code of "unknown origin".
Inference: All codes must therefore have natural origins.
Conclusion: DNA has natural origins.
All YOU need to do is provide us with one code of non-natural origins. JUST ONE!
You clearly have a problem, my logic is just as good as yours, yet conflicts with your conclusion. Of course, you could accept both sets of reasoning & conclude that a natural intelligence born of this universe created DNA, but something tells me that's not the answer you want.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 3:46 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-13-2009 7:11 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 266 of 334 (512083)
06-14-2009 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by WordBeLogos
06-13-2009 7:11 PM


WordBeLOgos,
Mark, this is the question, is life natural or supernatural?
Life is natural by definition. God, should it exist would be supernatural. I gave the definition. Inside this universe = natural, outside = supernatural. It was even in the text you quoted.
So, given that you basically ignored the argument, here it is again; Every code where we are aware of the origin of that code, are all natural. Every single one. What YOU need is an unnatural one. All minds we are aware of are natural, too. So if a mind made DNA it must be natural & of this universe! All you need is one supernatural mind, JUST ONE!
mark writes:
I am not assuming anything in my logic that you are not.
My logic is as sound as yours, please show me what part of my logic is wrong:
Premise 1: All codes where the origin is known have natural origins. Bar none.
WBL writes:
All codes where the origin is known always comes from mind. Is mind / life natural or supernatural???? This is the question mark.
STOP REPEATING YOURSELF AND ANSWER THE QUESTION! All minds we know of are natural, show me a supernatural one. This is EXACTLY the same logic as yours. Now, go back & show me the logical flaw I have made in my argument, above.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-13-2009 7:11 PM WordBeLogos has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 308 of 334 (512793)
06-21-2009 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by WordBeLogos
06-21-2009 2:13 AM


Re: Equivocation: summary execution.
WBL,
Give me one scientific fact that contradicts the inference that messages, information, instructions, codes, plans *ONLY* come from mental processes. All you need is one.
Give me one scientific fact that contradicts the inference that messages, information, instructions, codes, plans *ONLY* come from natural mental processes. All you need is one.
Give me one scientific fact that contradicts the inference that messages, information, instructions, codes, plans *ONLY* come from humans. All you need is one.
Clearly all this logic points to a natural intelligence from this universe created the genetic code.
My religious / theological beliefs have nothing to do with this argument.
But it does, the conclusion you want to come to is that a supernatural intelligence outside this universe created the genetic code when your own form of logic concludes otherwise.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-21-2009 2:13 AM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-21-2009 5:03 AM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 316 of 334 (512837)
06-21-2009 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by WordBeLogos
06-21-2009 5:03 AM


Re: Equivocation: summary execution.
WordBeLogos,
The known fact that codes, information, instructions, and plans where here before biological mental processes where.
No. Clearly it shows us why natural intelligence can be excluded as a possibilty for creating the genetic code. They simply where not around to do it. So what does that leave us with??
No, they were here before earthly biological mental processes. Notice the conclusion was that natural alien mental processes must have created the genetic code?
(2) could well be true but only pushes the question back in time.
So does...
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.
You can't have it both ways.
When choosing between 2 & 5 we can invoke the logic that all known codes have been created by natural intelligences, therefore DNA is the same & aliens must be involved. Obviously you think that these aliens must be the result of a code themselves? Well, so must god in that case. So, who created god? It just pushes the problem backwards.
As regards 4) "There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information", it isn't undiscovered, it's called chemistry & natural selection. Natural selection has been observed to have created new function & therefore new genetic information.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-21-2009 5:03 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

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