Stile writes:
WordBeLogos writes:
the challenge to the naturalist is to provide a single example of coded information that occurs naturally, outside the realm of life, outside the realm of DNA. All you need is one example.
Gravity. Gravity is the natural code or language that describes the forces on objects due to other objects.
Gravity still fits all your definitions. Just because you do not want to acknowledge it as such doesn't change any of the facts.
WordBeLogos writes:
Definition of coded information - a system of symbols used by an encoding/ decoding mechanism which transmits a message representing a idea, plan or instructions etc., that are independent of the communication medium.
With DNA, the chemical structures can be represented with certain symbols (C, G, T, A).
With Gravity, the physical structures can be represented with certain symbols (m, a, c, f, p, time co-ordinates, position co-ordinates...)
With DNA, the information is encoded/decoded by other chemical reactions (cell duplication, biological variablility).
With Gravity, the information is encoded/decoded by other physical reactions (orbits, collisions, physical variability).
With DNA the message transmitted is "how to grow."
With Gravity, the message transmitted is "how to react."
DNA and Gravity are both equally independant of their communication meduims... whatever that's supposed to mean.
DNA is all chemical reactions, Gravity is all space-time.
The formal definition of a code according to Perlwitz and Waterman is a set of symbols that uniquely map a point in space "A" to a point in space "B."
Set of symbols for object 1: m, a, time, at point "A" in space
Set of symbols for object 2: m, a, time, at point "B" in space
The information about each object is transmitted to the other via gravity.
Gravitational fields are fields, but not code, as it does not uniquely map a point in space A to a point in space B.
You are wrong.
I've shown just above that the gravitational field is a code which certainly does uniquely map a point in space A to a point in space B.
Magma flows and layers of rock and ice, one might possibly argue that these things are encoding systems but they have no corresponding decoding system until someone shows up to inspect and interpret them...
You are wrong.
Whatever the magma flow is flowing over is decoding the information from the lava. People observing such are not required for the information to be decoded. Whether anyone is there or not does not affect the devastation caused by a magma flow.
"The volcano's erupting!"
"Save the village! Evacuate! If we're not here to decode the lava's information, everything will be fine!"
... yeah.
Gravity and tornados and sand dunes and water molecules contain no code, no symbols, no encoding/decoding mechanisms.
You are wrong.
Symbols: m, a, f, p, time, co-ordinates
Encoding/decoding mechanisms: space-time
Code: gravitational equations that describe how the information is encoded and decoded by each object
Does the description of gravity, 1/r^2, give us a big ellipse or a small one? An elongated one or a round one? An approximately parabolic path? Or a spiral, as the orbit comes closer and closer and the object crashes?
Depends on all it's symbols: m, a, time...
All of these are strictly defined if you have all the symbols and understand the gravitational equations.
Does 1/r^2 describe the crash itself, which may be extraordinarily complex? Gravity may cause the object to burn up in the atmosphere and never reach the ground. Gravity makes cool air drop, so hot air rises. Gravity holds my chair to the ground and me to the chair. The possibilities that a gravitational field can give rise to are legion. It contributes to all of these things, but which of these outcomes does it specify in advance?
Gravity specifys all of these outcomes in advace.
Yes, there are many possibilities... just like there are with DNA.
Yes, it may be difficult to get all the initial variables... just like it can be with DNA.
Yes, the calculations may be complex and take a super-computer, or perhaps even be out of our current capabilities... just like it is with DNA.
None of this takes away from the fact that all the initial variables are there... or that it is possible to calculate the exact final position, just like DNA.
Of course, sometimes if you get too close to quantum probability-type stuff, the answers can become unclear. But, this happens exactly the same with DNA because of unpredictable mutations.
The answer of course, is that it specifies none of these outcomes. It has no code that predetermines any single one of these things. It is simply one contributing force in all of them.
Just because YOU don't know enough about gravity doesn't mean other's don't. Gravity, in fact, specifies ALL of these outcomes, the equations are indeed the code that predetermines each and every one of these things.
Why? because 1/r^2 describes the strength of the field as a function of radius from a single point, nothing more.
That isn't the gravitational equation, it is merely one basic representation of it. There are many, many basic representations of the Gravity Code that make it easier to look at specific areas. However, they are all derived from the same set of symbols and the same space-time.
I'm just waiting for one naturalist to produce an actual empirical counterexample.
You can ignore the Gravity Code all you want. You can't change the facts. The facts are that the definition of coded information you've provided includes the Gravity Code. You cannot form a defintion of code that includes DNA and excludes the Gravity Code, it's just not possible.
Keep trying, though, I'm learning a lot about the Gravity Code by explaining it to you.
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