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Author Topic:   coded information in DNA
AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 16 of 334 (509951)
05-26-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


A reminder
Has Percy has less formally noted you are expected to define what you are talking about.
This topic was promoted conditionally. Please remember that. You have some difficult challenges to deal with. It maybe the first time you've ever had to really think about what you mean and to be clear in your thinking and expression.
You should take this as a learning opportunity. I'll be fairly lenient as long as I see what I consider an honest attempt to respond to the replies and requests that you get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 17 of 334 (509967)
05-26-2009 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


WordBeLogos writes:
1- DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern, it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
Actually, it is a molecule with a pattern.
It appears to me that you aren't quite defining the word 'code' though. The word code is quite vague in the English language. I would suggest you explicitly define what a code entails before proceeding.
WordBeLogos writes:
2- All codes are created by a conscious mind, there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
This is a false premise.
The main reason this is a false premise is:
A) You have not demonstrated that a code can be created by any conscious entity other than a human.
B) You have not demonstrated why a conscious entity is necessary for the creation of any code.
C) You have not adequately explained what a code would look like if it hadn't been designed by a conscious entity.
WordBeLogos writes:
3- Therefore DNA was designed by intelligence.
This would be known as a false conclusion, as one of your premises has been found to be false.
WordBeLogos writes:
If you can provide an example of a code or language that occurs naturally you can prove this false. All you need is one.
Your own argument has proven itself false as I have explained above.
I would recommend you also provide a precise definition of the word "natural".
When it comes to philosophical discussion, precision is of the utmost importance. There is no point in having a discussion if we can't agree on such a simple thing as what we are discussing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 5392 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 18 of 334 (510005)
05-26-2009 4:30 PM


Definition of coded information - a system of symbols used by an encoding/ decoding mechanism which transmits a message representing a idea, plan or instructions etc., that are independent of the communication medium.
The book Information Theory - Evolution and the Origin of Life is written by Hubert Yockey, the foremost living specialist in bioinformatics. The publisher is Cambridge University press. Yockey rigorously demonstrates that the coding process in DNA is identical to the coding process and mathematical definitions used in electrical engineering, and is not subjective, it is not debatable or even controversial. It is a brute fact:
Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies. (Hubert P. Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, Cambridge University Press, 2005)
Code is defined as communication between an encoder, a writer or speaker and a decoder, a reader or listener using agreed upon symbols.
DNA's definition as a literal code and not a figurative one is nearly universal in the entire body of biological literature since the 1960's.
DNA code has much in common with human language and computer languages
DNA transcription is an encoding/decoding mechanism isomorphic with Claude Shannon's 1948 model: The sequence of base pairs is encoded into messenger RNA which is decoded into proteins.
Information theory terms and ideas applied to DNA are not metaphorical but in fact quite literal in every way. In other words, the information theory argument for design is not based on analogy at all. It is direct application of mathematics to DNA, which by definition is a code.
In the same way, you can prove that President Obama is white --- if I will only grant you the premise that all American Presidents (in which we include President Obama) are white.
It's very easy to prove anything if you are allowed to postulate, without proof, a premise that includes your conclusion.
Correct, except here, we can observe Obama himself to know otherwise.
Let's be more specific, all codes are made by man.
Besides human language we also observe animal mating calls, bee waggle dances, bird songs, whale songs,and ant communication by pheromone etc., using coded information. Since all the above are derivatives of DNA, the challenge to the naturalist is to provide a single example of coded information that occurs naturally, outside the realm of life, outside the realm of DNA. All you need is one example.
brb,..

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2009 5:45 PM WordBeLogos has replied
 Message 23 by mark24, posted 05-26-2009 7:33 PM WordBeLogos has replied
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 19 of 334 (510007)
05-26-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 4:30 PM


Since all the above are derivatives of DNA, the challenge to the naturalist is to provide a single example of coded information that occurs naturally, outside the realm of life, outside the realm of DNA. All you need is one example.
Ok, so these "codes" are created by animals without intelligence, but are actually derived from the genome. Our intelligence is derived from the genome, our codes come from our intelligence, so our codes are derived from our genome. Thus it is up to you to provide any codes that don't arise out of a genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 4:30 PM WordBeLogos has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 20 of 334 (510009)
05-26-2009 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 4:30 PM


Since all the above are derivatives of DNA, the challenge to the naturalist is to provide a single example of coded information that occurs naturally, outside the realm of life, outside the realm of DNA.
Why is this a challenge?
I'm a piece of "coded information" that entered this world naturally. If you follow the history of organisms you'll also find that they enter this world naturally, until you get to...your defalt position...the origin of the first "living" cell - RNA.
Which you then conclude IS NOT the result of natural chemical reactions, as has been everything else leading up to it, but is in fact the work of a "coding" designer, right...? - Print it up, I think you've got something there! Let's call it "irreducible complexity", no one will ever be able to...wait.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 334 (510011)
05-26-2009 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 4:30 PM


Correct, except here, we can observe Obama himself to know otherwise.
Quite so. So we know that the style of reasoning you are using is fallacious, since when we can test it directly, it breaks down immediately.
Besides human language we also observe animal mating calls, bee waggle dances, bird songs, whale songs,and ant communication by pheromone etc., using coded information. Since all the above are derivatives of DNA, the challenge to the naturalist is to provide a single example of coded information that occurs naturally, outside the realm of life, outside the realm of DNA.
And the challenge to the supernaturalist is to provide a single example of coded information that occurs by a miracle, outside the realm of life, outside the realm of DNA.
Off you go.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 4:30 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 7:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 5392 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 22 of 334 (510016)
05-26-2009 7:26 PM


Gravity. Gravity is the natural code or language that describes the forces on objects due to other objects.
The formal definition of a code according to Perlwitz and Waterman is a set of symbols that uniquely map a point in space "A" to a point in space "B." In other words there is special symbolic correspondence between a letter or word (idea) and a real physical entity. The word "coffee" represents a beverage made from cocoa beans for example. Symbolic relationships of this kind are only created in the mental world, they by definition do not exist in the purely material world.
Gravitational fields are fields, but not code, as it does not uniquely map a point in space A to a point in space B. Crystals and snowflakes, have edges and boundaries and growth patterns but do not contain any codes. Magma flows and layers of rock and ice, one might possibly argue that these things are encoding systems but they have no corresponding decoding system until someone shows up to inspect and interpret them, bee waggles and tree rings, yes, these things are most certainly codes - but they derive from DNA, and therefore don't count as examples of naturally occurring codes, since DNA has not been proven to have a naturalistic origin. Radioactive decay, same problem as gravity and magma flows, rhodopsin, an example of transduction, may be an encoding system but there is no decoding.
Our description of gravitys pull as 1/r^2 is a symbolic representation of its behavior but gravity itself is just a force. Gravity and tornados and sand dunes and water molecules contain no code, no symbols, no encoding/decoding mechanisms. DNA, however does symbolically represent something other than itself, a plan/ instructions for building a complete organism.
Does the description of gravity, 1/r^2, give us a big ellipse or a small one? An elongated one or a round one? An approximately parabolic path? Or a spiral, as the orbit comes closer and closer and the object crashes? Does 1/r^2 describe the crash itself, which may be extraordinarily complex? Gravity may cause the object to burn up in the atmosphere and never reach the ground. Gravity makes cool air drop, so hot air rises. Gravity holds my chair to the ground and me to the chair. The possibilities that a gravitational field can give rise to are legion. It contributes to all of these things, but which of these outcomes does it specify in advance?
The answer of course, is that it specifies none of these outcomes. It has no code that predetermines any single one of these things. It is simply one contributing force in all of them.
Why? because 1/r^2 describes the strength of the field as a function of radius from a single point, nothing more. The equation for an ellipse can be given in a number of different forms, but 1/r^ 2 itself does not specifically describe an ellipse. Nor does it specifically describe a spiral, or a crash, or cool air dropping as hot air rises.Thats because gravity is a force, not a code.
This is in contrast to DNA, which codes for every inheritable trait. It codes, in advance, whether your eyes are green or blue. Whether your skin is white or red or black or yellow. Whether you are male or female. Whether your blood is RH Negative or O Positive. Whether you go bald or not, whether your chest is hairy, whether you are short or tall. The physical characteristics and biochemical instructions that DNA specifies in any particular instance would fill a very large book. DNA codes for these characteristics the same sense that magnetic fields on your hard drive code for all our family pictures. That's because DNA is not a force, a field, or a boundary, it's a code.
I'm not asserting we will all agree that all codes have conscious minds as a designer. I'm just waiting for one naturalist to produce an actual empirical counterexample.
Ok, so these "codes" are created by animals without intelligence, but are actually derived from the genome. Our intelligence is derived from the genome, our codes come from our intelligence, so our codes are derived from our genome. Thus it is up to you to provide any codes that don't arise out of a genome.
That's just it, we know of none.
I'm a piece of "coded information" that entered this world naturally. If you follow the history of organisms you'll also find that they enter this world naturally, until you get to...your defalt position...the origin of the first "living" cell - RNA.
This is circular reasoning. You are already assuming, that you, consisting of information through DNA, arose naturally. The laws of physics and chemistry do not account for the coded information (unless you are willing to provide an example) any more then the paper and ink in a book account for the message it contains.

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 23 of 334 (510017)
05-26-2009 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 4:30 PM


WordBeLogos,
Definition of coded information - a system of symbols used by an encoding/ decoding mechanism which transmits a message representing a idea, plan or instructions etc., that are independent of the communication medium.
And the only "known" examples of a code are man-made, thus removing god from the equation.
Oops...Back to the drawing board.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 4:30 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 7:44 PM mark24 has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 334 (510018)
05-26-2009 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 7:26 PM


This is circular reasoning. You are already assuming, that you, consisting of information through DNA, arose naturally.
He did. You see, his mummy and daddy loved one another very much, and one day he put his man parts into her lady parts, and ...
... and no miraculous events were involved at any point. Nor did his parents use their minds to design his genome. It happened naturally and without the application of intelligence.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 7:26 PM WordBeLogos has replied

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WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 5392 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 25 of 334 (510019)
05-26-2009 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2009 5:45 PM


Quite so. So we know that the style of reasoning you are using is fallacious, since when we can test it directly, it breaks down immediately.
Yes, we can find Obama to see for ourselves. But we have no known observable example of the laws of physics and chemistry producing coded information. All you need is one example.
And the challenge to the supernaturalist is to provide a single example of coded information that occurs by a miracle, outside the realm of life, outside the realm of DNA.
Not by miracle, but by intelligence. That's what we DO know, by empirical observation, that produces coded information. What we don't know is, can it arise without it. If you believe so, all you need is one example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2009 5:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2009 7:42 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 334 (510020)
05-26-2009 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 7:34 PM


Yes, we can find Obama to see for ourselves.
Which demonstrates that your mode of reasoning is fallacious, since it breaks down when we can test it.
But we have no known observable example of the laws of physics and chemistry producing coded information.
How about the beneficial mutations that we can observe happening today. Were they produced by a mind? If so, why does this happen more frequently in the presence of mutagens?
Not by miracle, but by intelligence.
So you agree that no miracles were involved at any point?
Fine. Then it arose naturally.
That's what we DO know, by empirical observation, that produces coded information. What we don't know is, can it arise without it. If you believe so, all you need is one example.
Except that your particular brand of circular reasoning appears to exclude all the numerous examples.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 7:34 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 8:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 5392 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 27 of 334 (510021)
05-26-2009 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mark24
05-26-2009 7:33 PM


Mark,
And the only "known" examples of a code are man-made, thus removing god from the equation.
Oops...Back to the drawing board.
Precisely. But man didn't make the coded information in DNA, thereby removing man also! Now, what's left? Intelligence, as the only known available explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mark24, posted 05-26-2009 7:33 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 5392 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 28 of 334 (510022)
05-26-2009 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2009 7:34 PM


... and no miraculous events were involved at any point. Nor did his parents use their minds to design his genome. It happened naturally and without the application of intelligence.
When my computer logs on for automatic updates, all by itself, is this by intelligent design or just natural? What is ultimately acting itself out, be it unobsevable and without direct intervention? Thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2009 7:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 29 of 334 (510023)
05-26-2009 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 7:44 PM


WordBeLogos,
But man didn't make the coded information in DNA
But he must of, your logic requires that conclusion. We have no evidence whatsoever of gods, let alone ever ever ever seeing them create something, so again, your logic rules out deities.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 7:44 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
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WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 5392 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 30 of 334 (510024)
05-26-2009 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2009 7:42 PM


Dr,
Which demonstrates that your mode of reasoning is fallacious, since it breaks down when we can test it.
Agree, so when can we observe the origin of the coded information in DNA? Postulate all we want. But until then, we are left with only one known observable explanation, thought. Unless you can provide one without it.
How about the beneficial mutations that we can observe happening today. Were they produced by a mind? If so, why does this happen more frequently in the presence of mutagens?
I believe in intelligent evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2009 7:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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