|
Author
|
Topic: Misconceptions in Relativity
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
|
Message 31 of 141 (508968)
05-17-2009 5:14 PM
|
Reply to: Message 30 by cavediver
05-17-2009 3:30 PM
|
|
Me, me, me, me, me
Exercise 1: Can we imagine a scenario where the "relativistic" mass of something* cannot be transformed away? And so could have a gravitational effect? Photons: zero rest mass, never at rest.
It is far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men.
Spock: Mirror Mirror
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by cavediver, posted 05-17-2009 3:30 PM | | cavediver has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by cavediver, posted 05-17-2009 6:40 PM | | lyx2no has not replied |
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
|
|
Message 55 of 141 (509656)
05-23-2009 8:29 AM
|
Reply to: Message 46 by cavediver
05-22-2009 8:51 AM
|
|
What's the Secret?
An appreciation of how to use journals and citations to gain an understanding of the acceptability of an idea. I need this. I can only rarely just barely find stuff in journals. Help.
It is far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men.
Spock: Mirror Mirror
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by cavediver, posted 05-22-2009 8:51 AM | | cavediver has not replied |
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
|
|
Message 56 of 141 (509657)
05-23-2009 9:05 AM
|
Reply to: Message 53 by slevesque
05-23-2009 4:34 AM
|
|
Background
He says it comes from the background of galaxies, not from galaxies. Maybe it is his phrasing, but I understood it as that the CMBR comes from behind the galaxies, and so the galaxies and its dark matter should create gravitationnal lensing on it. Background, in this case, does not mean behind as it does in a landscape. The people living in the houses on the hills in the background don't see the hills in the background. "Background" radiation is everywhere. Were it not it would look different from different parts of the Universe. A photon from the background radiation passing a galaxy will be lensed. But CMBR photons are pretty much indistinguishable in energy and direction they come from all directions with near perfect smoothness so one would not know what direction it was "supposed" to be coming from. Edited by lyx2no, : Typo.
It is far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men.
Spock: Mirror Mirror
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by slevesque, posted 05-23-2009 4:34 AM | | slevesque has not replied |
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
|
|
Message 80 of 141 (510163)
05-28-2009 8:01 AM
|
Reply to: Message 78 by Straggler
05-25-2009 8:40 AM
|
|
The Sun Becomes a Black Hole
Not be tedious, but I wanted to get an idea of how g would change as we got closer to the center of the Sun compared to the center of an equal mass black hole. In another thread it was mentioned that there would be no net g inside a shell. I, therefore, assumed I would only have to contend with the mass inside of a radius to determine the net g that would be experienced. I was unable to find a table for ρ as a function of r to get the amount of mass inside r so I sort of guessed my own: 0<ρ<6; logρ=-0.7r+5.210 5 kg/m 3 and a bit of fudge. That very well might have made the exercise silly, but I'd think it could be close enough to have some value. It does behave as I suspected it would. Since I went to the trouble of doing the work I might as well share it.
Distance = r (x108 m) Acc. with Sun (m/s2) Acc. with black hole
10 133 133
9 164 164
8 207 207
We're now just above the surface about to enter the body of the Sun.
7 271 271
6 368 368
5 526 530
4 800 830
3 1220 1480
2 2090 3320
1 3540 13300
.9 3190 16400
.8 2835 20700
.7 2480 27100
.6 2130 36900
.5 1760 53100
.4 1417 82900
.3 1070 147000
.2 717 332000
.1 354 1330000
0 0 ∞ Of course, because relativistic effects. it doesn't really go to infinity, but I've haven't a clue as to how that would be calculated. I trust someone will let me know if I've done something obviously stupid.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2009 8:40 AM | | Straggler has not replied |
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
|
|
Message 82 of 141 (510191)
05-28-2009 4:20 PM
|
Reply to: Message 81 by cavediver
05-28-2009 8:08 AM
|
|
Re: The Sun Becomes a Black Hole
Thank you, cavediver. I'm surprised, I thought I was being daring but I didn't make the gradient nearly steep enough. This makes the peak higher and nearer the center. The over all shape is the same, however.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by cavediver, posted 05-28-2009 8:08 AM | | cavediver has not replied |
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
There Can Be Only One
What actually is being used in the GPS navigation is the Sagnac Effect. Did all the other effects that GPS have to take into account battle it out until there was only one? Are each man's thoughts and dreams the Sagnac Effects to know? (Sci-fi culture reference.) GPS takes into account both the quickening (SR) and the slowing (GR) of time. Awfully strange that relativity gives the correct answers to both in part per billion if it's wrong. Lucky guess? AbE:
SO, in message 98, writes: Why? Is it unrealistic to say that when you move your hand through water that it is you hand that is slowing down, and not the time? If you move your hand through the air with the same force it will go faster. Does that mean that time is going faster? Gads, you're dumb use of hand waving to make your point is really quite humorous. Edited by lyx2no, : Gratuitous insult. Edited by lyx2no, : Modify gratuitous insult.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
Re: There Can Be Only One
There are no Relativistic effects GPS has to take account of. If there are no relativistic effect why do we only get the right answers when we pretend they do? Do the system operators refer to a mathacaid pay schedule and see that they will make more money if they make Lorentz transformations?
They actually take geocentric ECEF frame of reference to measure time. ECEF has no time measure of any kind associated with it any more than does the letter and number grid in the board game BATTLESHIP. I CAN GO INTO THE PAST
TO SINK YOUR BATTLESHIP FROM THE FUTURE Do you understand anything you read? I'd not heard of ECEF till your mention of it and in two minutes knew that you were full of it. From your own wiki reference: [ECEF] represents positions as an X, Y, and Z coordinate. The point (0,0,0) denotes the mass center of the earth, hence the name Earth-Centered. The z-axis is defined as being parallel to the earth rotational axes, pointing towards north. The x-axis intersects the sphere of the earth at the 0 latitude, 0 longitude. Where is the T axis?
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
Re: There Can Be Only One
GPS ECEF actually relies on taking into account relativistic time-dilation in order for the GPS satellites to synchronize precisely (we are talking about micro-seconds) in order to get accurate GPS positions to less than 50 feet discrepency. It is my understanding that ECEF is a stagnant reference frame. Accurately getting onto that RF from the real world requires relativity. Please correct me if I'm wrong*. * Warning: This is a sincere request for information.Due to the sarcastic nature of the inquisitor this warning is required by law to minimize potential offense following the request "Please correct me if I'm wrong.". If this warning is not present, and you have reason to believe the claimant is not dissing you, you may have legal recourse under M.G.L. Title XVII c. 119, s. 58.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
|
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
|
Re: There Can Be Only One
SO in message 100 writes: They actually take geocentric ECEF frame of reference to measure time. lyx in message 101 writes: Where is the T axis? OS in message 112 writes: Obviously doesn't need one!
Please explain to me how one can measure time without referring to it.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
|
™ Version 4.2
