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Author Topic:   Martyrdom promotes faith.
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 14 (510548)
06-01-2009 10:07 AM


While waiting for my wife to do the shopping I was reading the magazines (with a gaagle of other married men, it seemed). I happened to skim an artical in 'The New Scientist' about martyrs having a positive effect on the popularity of the faith in question.
New Scientist writes:
When religious leaders make costly sacrifices for their beliefs, the argument goes, these acts add credibility to their professions of faith and help their beliefs to spread. If, on the other hand, no one is willing to make a significant sacrifice for a belief then observers - even young children - quickly pick up on this and withhold their own commitment.
Religions owe their success to suffering martyrs | New Scientist
The arguement seemed to imply that seeing other people suffer for their beliefs strengthened ones own beliefs (if they were of the same faith). This meant that their church would have high demands on their flock.
It went on to say that the more liberal churches were losing their grip on the faithful because there was little in the way of demands asked of the congregation.
The opposite was suggested to be ocuring in the US with the rise of pretty strict fundementalism.
Is this really the case? Is a strict and oppressive church with very high standards that dictates that the faithful suffer for their beliefs paradoxically more attractive than the liberal churches where you can turn up and have a nice cup of tea and a chat?
Comparative religions?

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Admin
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Message 2 of 14 (510651)
06-02-2009 6:57 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 3 of 14 (510661)
06-02-2009 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
06-02-2009 6:57 AM


Not getting email notification for this, Percy.

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 14 (510663)
06-02-2009 8:31 AM


I don't think the distinction is as clear cut as that. While a very strict and conventionally uninviting church may not particularly attract new followers, the same might be said for the very open and informal church. I think the goal would be somewhere in between the two, for example:
Paul, Mike, and Jimbob are taking little Sammy on a trip hunting snipe. Sammy isn't exactly bright but he isn't stupid; he realizes that he does not really have a good mental picture of what a snipe might actually be and he certainly has never seen one himself, but he *has* heard about them in passing. The real clincher is that Paul brought two shotguns, Mike brought a full camouflage suit and a catch pole, and Jimbob has two chain mail gloves and a deer skinning set. They drove 40 miles out into the woods; with all this preparation, how could they possibly be pulling his leg?
The key is commitment. The whole idea might be completely without evidence but if you have a massive church and a bunch of trappings then surely it isn't just made up, right? If you cannot afford those trappings then having a spokesperson flog themselves, or cut off a delicate portion of their private parts can serve a similar purpose.

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Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 14 (510664)
06-02-2009 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phage0070
06-02-2009 8:31 AM


The Key Is Commitment
Phage writes:
The key is commitment. The whole idea might be completely without evidence but if you have a massive church and a bunch of trappings then surely it isn't just made up, right? If you cannot afford those trappings then having a spokesperson flog themselves, or cut off a delicate portion of their private parts can serve a similar purpose.
I don't think that most church goers would blindly follow some cultic attempt at sacrifice as a means to impress God or each other. In fact, one of the major problems with many American Christians is a lack of sacrificial commitment. Its easy to mount a food drive for the local shelter....buying a couple of extra cans of beans and vegetables and tossing them in the bin costs very little.
The type of martyrdom that an American Christian likely won't embrace is seeing the entire world as a global village full of Gods children and giving not only money but time towards helping the poor irregardless of whether they join your church or religion or not.
Few want to sacrifice without a 30, 60, or 100 fold return.

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 6 of 14 (510672)
06-02-2009 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-01-2009 10:07 AM


New Scientist writes:
When religious leaders make costly sacrifices for their beliefs, the argument goes, these acts add credibility to their professions of faith and help their beliefs to spread. If, on the other hand, no one is willing to make a significant sacrifice for a belief then observers - even young children - quickly pick up on this and withhold their own commitment.
Another example I've seen on this very forum is, "Why would the martyrs of Jesus' time really let themselves be killed for something that wasn't true?"
The thinking seems to be, if they were willing to die for their beliefs, those beliefs must have been true, otherwise they would have had some doubt. This is flawed thinking, but I can see how some would subscribe to it.
Another side is that people like to see commitment. If you're passionate about something, you're willing to go that extra mile, even if it causes you discomfort, and people will be more willing to follow you if they feel you're not likely to flake out on them.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 14 (510678)
06-02-2009 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-01-2009 10:07 AM


Then perhaps the pope should have a red hot poker up his rectum to solve the catholic church's problem of losing followers?
There has been no doubt that throughout the centuries martyrs have been the driving force of the world religions. Action is worth a thousand words, and no action except sacrificing oneself could demonstrate one's sincerity in one's beliefs.
But that's the problem that most people fail to see. They are still beliefs, not truths. If, say, I come home and see that my house is burning. If while standing outside I believe that my wife is still inside, I am more than sure that I would run in and try to get her out. Is anyone going to doubt the sincerity of my belief that my wife is still inside? Hell, no. But the more important question is is she really inside or has she already gotten out or is not even in the neighborhood? I think people get too easily confused between the belief and the fact. It's one thing that I believe my wife is in the burning house. It's another that she is actually in there or not.
When someone becomes a martyr for his beliefs, all we know is the sincerity of his beliefs. It tells us nothing about the truth.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 8 of 14 (510679)
06-02-2009 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-01-2009 10:07 AM


Fear and the illusion of importance
For the record, I'm just talking out my ass here:
It seems to me that "going to church" has some sort of 'belonging to a special group' idea attached to it.
In a liberal church, one can more easily see that the going to church part may not be the important part, and possibly the "doing good" part is what's important. From there, one can start thinking about why they really go to church. If they have friends and 'special groups' to belong to elsewhere... then going to church starts to take on less and less signifigance.
In an oppressive, high-standard church setting, this time to think isn't really allowed. If you miss one Sunday, you'll get hounded by phone-calls and dirty looks and "don't you care about your soul??!!!!" type screaming. The illusion of utmost-importance is structured so firmly that one begins to be afraid of ever questioning it. The initial, surface reaction of "I'm being so brutally chastised... I much have done something very wrong... I must do better so I'm no longer chastised" prevents any further thought towards a "why do I really go to church at all?" type of question.
Many people want to believe they're attached to something special and important. A liberal church that doesn't care if you attend every week does not promote a sense if extreme importance. An oppressive church that blatantly scolds it's members creates the illusion of high-importance.
...or something.

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 14 (510680)
06-02-2009 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
06-02-2009 9:05 AM


Re: The Key Is Commitment
Phat writes:
I don't think that most church goers would blindly follow some cultic attempt at sacrifice as a means to impress God or each other. ... Few want to sacrifice without a 30, 60, or 100 fold return.
Really? Do you know how many people are circumcised? How about those who fast, or smear ashes on themselves, or swear off entire groups of foods or beverages, or even sex?
Of those people, who has ever received ANY return whatsoever from their god? Surely if people require even a 10% return then having a billion people doing one or more of the above would yield at least one verifiable instance of a return on their sacrificial commitment, right?

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Lokins
Junior Member (Idle past 5091 days)
Posts: 23
From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Joined: 05-28-2009


Message 10 of 14 (510687)
06-02-2009 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phage0070
06-02-2009 12:36 PM


Re: The Key Is Commitment
Phage0070 writes:
Do you know how many people are circumcised?
To be fair, at least in the case of Jews, the babies are circumcised within days to weeks of their birth (I can't remember which). I guess that shows the amount of freedom given to youth to choose their own beliefs.
But that's a topic for another forum. =)

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 14 (511122)
06-06-2009 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
06-01-2009 10:07 AM


The nature martyrdom
When religious leaders make costly sacrifices for their beliefs, the argument goes, these acts add credibility to their professions of faith and help their beliefs to spread. If, on the other hand, no one is willing to make a significant sacrifice for a belief then observers - even young children - quickly pick up on this and withhold their own commitment.
Isn't this kind of obvious, though? Martyrdom works for all causes, not just faith-based ones. Imagine the following scenario: Somebody goes above and beyond the call of duty and jumps on a hand grenade to save his platoon... Instant martyrdom.
The problem with the zealots is that EVERYTHING that happens is "God's Will." The first Trade Center attack not going to plan was Allah's will. The second going as planned was Allah's will. It's circular, so that no matter what the hell happens, it was God's plan all along.
Doesn't that go against freewill??? Hmmmmmmm... *scratches temple*
Whatever the case may be, I don't really see the article as remarkable as it seems to be pointing out the obvious.

"An idealist believes the short run doesn't count. A cynic believes the long run doesn't matter. A realist believes that what is done or left undone in the short run determines the long run." --Sydney J. Harris--

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 12 of 14 (511138)
06-06-2009 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
06-06-2009 9:29 AM


Re: The nature martyrdom
What I took out of the article was that the more the faith demands from people the more (paradoxically) they adhere to the faith.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 14 (512162)
06-15-2009 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
06-02-2009 11:59 AM


Doing Something Important
Taz writes:
When someone becomes a martyr for his beliefs, all we know is the sincerity of his beliefs. It tells us nothing about the truth.
Newsflash: You are never going to find the truth until you stop looking. Forrest Gump even knew this.
Stile writes:
Many people want to believe they're attached to something special and important. A liberal church that doesn't care if you attend every week does not promote a sense if extreme importance. An oppressive church that blatantly scolds it's members creates the illusion of high-importance.
...or something.
That something is known as fear.
I no longer feel that attending church regularly is essential. It is useful for fellowship and helping others, but by no means the only place that one can help.
Edited by Phat, : added features!

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 14 (512181)
06-15-2009 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
06-15-2009 2:21 AM


Re: Doing Something Important
I no longer feel that attending church regularly is essential. It is useful for fellowship and helping others, but by no means the only place that one can help.
That could be why having liberal religious views is detrimental to church attendance figures.
If you were socially sanctioned by a bad arse vicar every time you failed to turn up it might be different?

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