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Author Topic:   Intelligent (maybe), but far from perfect
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 13 of 91 (50984)
08-19-2003 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dan Carroll
08-18-2003 3:59 PM


quote:
How about Batman? Why are you so quick to dismiss Batman?
...because batman cant dance!...the batoozie...plueez!...now godzilla..he could dance..and he is just as real as all of the evidence for ID

This message is a reply to:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 19 of 91 (51063)
08-19-2003 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by MrHambre
08-19-2003 10:32 AM


Re: Which Batman?
There is only one true Batman and he is Adam West. Only we priveleged True Believers will bask in the glory of his celestial Batoozy dance and you non-believers will be forced to watch re-runs of He-Man. Those who would degrade Adam West as "Campy" do so at the peril of their comics credibility. After all you have your thoery and I have mine but you cannot prove either so I must therefore be correct...after all the evidence for everything I have said is self evident.

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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 22 of 91 (51109)
08-19-2003 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dan Carroll
08-19-2003 12:42 PM


Is it any sillier than what a lot of creationists post?

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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 23 of 91 (51112)
08-19-2003 12:47 PM


Ok..in repentence for contributing to dragging the thread woefully off topic (Adam West is the real Batman )...since there are a lot of people posting in this thread and it is an appropriate place for the discussion...can anyone think of a hypothetical piece of evidence that would favor design. In holmes thread we abandoned trying to come up with a testable hypothesis...the proponents of the idea cannot do this either...but holmes suggested dreaming up evidence that would suggest design over a natural evolution...anyone have any ideas?

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 Message 27 by Parasomnium, posted 08-20-2003 6:59 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 26 of 91 (51316)
08-20-2003 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
08-19-2003 1:01 PM


I am not advocating the position mind you...I am just wondering if anyone could even concieve of a type of evidence....we can tell when something is designed by humans i.e. clovis artifacts, Mt. Rushmore etc...so we do have some sort of criteria for human design...what would indicate it in a natural system.
The genome is such a freaking mess it is more a wonder that it can replicate at all so all the self evident design the IDists talk about is not very evident...but I am still wondering what would make one pause and wonder.

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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 28 of 91 (51339)
08-20-2003 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Parasomnium
08-20-2003 6:59 AM


Maybe part of the problem is using the word design at all?
From Websters..
1 : to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan : DEVISE, CONTRIVE
2 a : to conceive and plan out in the mind b : to have as a purpose : INTEND c : to devise for a specific function or end
3 archaic : to indicate with a distinctive mark, sign, or name
4 a : to make a drawing, pattern, or sketch of b : to draw the plans for
intransitive senses
1 : to conceive or execute a plan
2 : to draw, lay out, or prepare a design
- designedly /-'zI-n&d-lE/ adverb
All of these imply a pre-determined purpose for which there is no evidence even in the emergent structures we observe in nature. In addition there are plenty of fairly poorly evolved structures i.e. the potentially wasteful repetiveness of the genome, the crappy efficiency of oxidative phosphorylation, fairly error prone polymerases and DNA repair pathways to mention a few.
Designing is anticipatory i.e. I design something to work in a specific environment and then put my design in the environment. Evolution is reactionary...mutation maintains variation regardless of environment..environment puts pressure on the variants some of which are able to accumulate to higher frequency meaning a particular structure emerges over time without a preconcieved or even necessarily predictable plan.
Don't hold your breathe for an emergence of clean thinking or logic from the ID or creationist camps.....
Oh yeah..batman preceded Robin thus Robinism is heresy
All bow to the wisdom, might, and dancing ability of Adam West..the real Batman..
cheers,
M
[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 08-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 30 by Parasomnium, posted 08-20-2003 8:49 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 33 of 91 (51346)
08-20-2003 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Parasomnium
08-20-2003 8:49 AM


Hi Parasomnium,
I do get your point...however, in your description you are anthropomorphizing evolution a bit by suggesting "wishing" for the next modification. It is clear that one can "progress" from a simple structure to a more refined and sensitive structure this seems to be rare in evolution i.e. optimizing a function. For example, it is becoming clear that humans are gradually losing olfactory receptor genes and our eyesight is rather poor contrasted with other primates, birth is hindered as a consequence of bipedal locomotion. Should this be called poor design? A solution to a problem is more accurate as it does not imply planning and it also does not imply that it is even a good solution to the problem...just the best that is out there currently.
As to the comment on computer programs and what it means..perhaps it means my email system has been kaputt all day .....and my western blot crapped out ...and my back hurts ...all these poor designs...
Zealot is trying...but get a load of A Christian
quote:
Catholicism preceded Protestantism. Ever tried to convince Protestants that they are the heretics, and not the Catholics?
Robin rules.
Neither group can dance the Batoozy..and Robin had to learn from Adam West aka the real Batman

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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