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Author Topic:   Is this tree leaf evolution?
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 1 of 20 (485131)
10-05-2008 11:58 AM


Since English is not my mother language, please, excuse possible errors.
If you look into my avatar (you may use my "profile" for a better definition), you will see a tree leaf. If you have some interest in nature and botanics, you will notice that it is a compound leaf, but the leaflets are not identical. This comes from a tree that belongs to the Aceraceae family (maples).
Now my question is: Is this evolution in working?. If you think "yes", explain reasons why. The same if you thing the answer is "no". Your explenations will be appreciated.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "tree leaf" part to the topic title.

Creationism and evolutionism should not be mutually excluding.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 10-06-2008 9:05 AM straightree has replied
 Message 16 by Rahvin, posted 10-08-2008 4:19 PM straightree has not replied
 Message 18 by lillywilliam, posted 10-14-2008 6:03 AM straightree has not replied

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 3 of 20 (485209)
10-06-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
10-06-2008 9:05 AM


When I pruned this tree, an Acer Negundo that has grown by itself in a wallnut plantation, I realized that the leaves, contrary to what I am used to see, (and I have pruned many trees), where quite different betwen them. I have more pictures, and expect to put them in a place that can be reached by Internet.
Aceraceae species, in general, have lobed leaves. There are some exceptions, like Acer Negundo, that has composed leaves. The more I look to the pictures I have of these leaves, the more I think Acer Negundo is in the way of evolving versus lobed leaves.
My opinion is that this evolving process is possible, but would like to check it with more informed forum members.
I am not completely in accordance with your statement, that evolution only happens during reproduction, but I do not want to go deep into that debate for the time being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 10-06-2008 9:05 AM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2008 12:26 PM straightree has replied
 Message 6 by Blue Jay, posted 10-06-2008 1:07 PM straightree has replied

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 7 of 20 (485275)
10-06-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
10-06-2008 12:26 PM


The pictures have already been placed at Photobucked, at this address
http://s412.photobucket.com/...05/straightree/Acer%20Negundo.
Catholic Scientist, thank you for the information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2008 12:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2008 10:27 AM straightree has replied
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 10-07-2008 10:59 AM straightree has replied

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 10 of 20 (485340)
10-07-2008 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2008 10:27 AM


I am going to speculate. I know that it is dangerous, but at least it is not harmful.
Almost all Aceraceae have lobed leaves. Acer Negundo has compound leaves, but they are not like most compound leaves you will find. Fraxinus (ash trees) have compound leaves that look all the same. It is also that way with Juglans (walnut tree), castanea (chestnut tree) or any one I have ever found in forest.
If you look at maple lobed leaves, it is not difficult to imagine that they were compound leaves many years in the past. If you consider a compound leave, like the ones of Acer Negundo, and supress the connecting stems between leaflets, you come to have a lobed leaf. The number of lobes generally found in maples, three, five, seven, is coincident with the number of leaflets found in my pictures of Acer Negundo.
Also, you will see that some of the leaflets in the pictures are lobed, some of them assimetrically. So it seems like Acer Negundo leaves are not at rest, not stabilized yet, in a transitional stage.
What do you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2008 10:27 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2008 3:41 PM straightree has replied

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 11 of 20 (485341)
10-07-2008 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
10-07-2008 10:59 AM


Yes, most probably what I have seen is leaf forms inside the normal range found in Acer Negundo. Nevertheless, I think the speculations in my answer to Catholic Scientiest have some meaning.
By the way, what is the procedure for quoting any part of your message?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 10-07-2008 10:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 10-08-2008 8:34 AM straightree has not replied

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 13 of 20 (485357)
10-07-2008 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Blue Jay
10-06-2008 1:07 PM


For me, the only advantage I can think of is aesthetics, quite important to me, but I do not know for Acer Negundo.
Thank you for the genetic drift info.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Blue Jay, posted 10-06-2008 1:07 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 15 of 20 (485454)
10-08-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2008 3:41 PM


quote:
Did they all come from the same tree?
Yes, all were collected by myself from a single tree. This species is not very common in Spain, because it is native from USA. Here is used for gardens and parks, so some seed was carried by the wind to my plantation.
quote:
So yeah... might just be a normal tree.
Most probably it is.
quote:
Technically, all species are in a constant flux, check out genetic drift, so they are always in a transitional stage. You seem to think that stasis is the default but its not.
This could be the solution to my question. So for me, and for the time beeing this thread could be closed. I will document myself more extensively in the subject of genetic drift of species, and will look for some information on maples evolution. If I find some problem will ask for reopening the thread.
Thank you for your help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2008 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-08-2008 4:31 PM straightree has not replied

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 4862 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 20 of 20 (511124)
06-06-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by MiguelG
06-04-2009 8:41 PM


Re: Just a late reply.........
Thank you for your reply. I agree with you, but have a further question, or concern. How these morphological variations may be connected to evolution process. Could not it be that some of the variations are lost, wears others retained, so that in a long period of time modification is produced? See that Acer Negundo belongs to a family, maples, consisting of about 120 species, of which almost all have palmate lobed leaves. Looking to Acer Negundo leaves, one has the impression that it is a little bit delayed, but going into the same direction of the rest of maples.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by MiguelG, posted 06-04-2009 8:41 PM MiguelG has not replied

  
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