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Author Topic:   Not reading God's Word right is just wrong. No talking snakes!
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 31 of 157 (488772)
11-17-2008 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Greatest I am
11-16-2008 8:53 PM


I guess that you do not see a danger in turning the Bible into a fairy tale. That is where many are classing it now. you exacerbate the problem. Put away your toys of children.
I prefer to heed the warning of Christ about God's ways of revelation of great truths:
"At that time Jesus answered and said, I extol You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Yes, Father, for thus it has been well pleasing in Your sight." (Matt. 11:25,26)
I am concerned that those wise in themselves miss out on comprehension of truth because of self conceit and leaning on their own understanding.
Perhaps you should consider coming to the Bible in a more humble spirit for God has "hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and ... revealed them to infants."
Maybe the one leaning on "toys" is yourself ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 11-16-2008 8:53 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2008 11:46 AM jaywill has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 157 (488774)
11-17-2008 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by jaywill
11-17-2008 11:12 AM


Yep yep. Jesus loved children.
He shows how much in doing His part as a chimera God at the time of the flood. I wonder if He petitioned God to drown the children and babies first. All that crying would have been annoying.
There was no flood.
It does stand up to moral sense.
Jesus would stay Gods hand.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jaywill, posted 11-17-2008 11:12 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 11-17-2008 7:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 33 of 157 (488806)
11-17-2008 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Greatest I am
11-17-2008 11:46 AM


Yep yep. Jesus loved children.
Don't miss the point now. Though Jesus loves children that is not what that passage is about.
The passage speaks of God the Father revealing things to those whose hearts manifest the simplicity of trust. The passage is not saying that God only reveals His truth to the physically young.
He shows how much in doing His part as a chimera God at the time of the flood. I wonder if He petitioned God to drown the children and babies first. All that crying would have been annoying.
There was no flood.
There was a flood. And unfortunately the kids were wiped out along with the adults.
Of course that does not tell us much about their eternal destiny.
Incidently, I would be suspicious of a book supposedly by God that had only things that I personally agreed with.
It does stand up to moral sense.
Jesus would stay Gods hand.
God's hand being stayed was manifested in the fact that eight people including Noah were saved in the ark to have a new beginning.
The ark was the staying of God's hand in that instance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2008 11:46 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2008 1:25 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 37 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2008 9:34 PM jaywill has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 34 of 157 (488843)
11-18-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
11-17-2008 7:49 PM


Only a traitor to the human race justifies genocide against it and at the same time himself and family. I think were through here.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 11-17-2008 7:49 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 157 (488844)
11-18-2008 1:26 PM


Jesus said to God, as He prepared, though shall not flood.
For I am here among them, should be the next phrase for Jesus as the human side came to the fore.
No human with any sort of sense of morality or ethics would do otherwise. Who of us, in this world would be so stupid as to not stay the hand of our human fathers, if they were reaching for the nuclear war button in the real reality that you are in?
We would all say to our fathers, Uh no. Let me help you away from that thar little button that ends the world.
Jesus, as our archetypal example of right action would apply His power of God, to move to save earth and not log the memory of having helped drown His people.
To think that those who follow Jesus would want His good name attached to genocide of humans should be unthinkable to Christians and yet they do it to themselves by reading the scriptures literally.
Jesus and children go together. To think that He would make a large gathering at the end times and at the times of the flood, and turn on His portion of the clouds is to take the minds of all of us where we do not want to go.
If you want religiosity to continue and not lose against evil then you must banish literal interpretation of out of date thinking.
What do you think Jesus was doing at the time of the flood? Helping or Hindering.
Regards
DL

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jaywill, posted 11-18-2008 7:09 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 36 of 157 (488868)
11-18-2008 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Greatest I am
11-18-2008 1:26 PM


We through now ?
Let me know if you want me to read your posts. When people say they are through I usually skip over the details of their discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2008 1:26 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 37 of 157 (488872)
11-18-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
11-17-2008 7:49 PM


The "flood" again
There was a flood.
There was a flood in the same way there are Jedi Knights.
Or hobbits and orcs.
There is more evidence for Santa Claus than for the purported global flood (what about all those presents, eh?).
Arguing about the purpose of the flood is akin to literary criticism or comparative folklore; it certainly is not history.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 11-17-2008 7:49 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jaywill, posted 11-18-2008 10:32 PM Coyote has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 38 of 157 (488873)
11-18-2008 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Coyote
11-18-2008 9:34 PM


Re: The "flood" again
Sure there was a flood. Cultures all over the world have a tradition about such a flood. The collective cultural memory of many civilizations have a tradition about a devastating flood. I think it has some basis in history - in the flood in Noah's time.
More important than that to me is the Jesus Christ took the flood of Noah as history. If Jesus took it seriously then I take is seriously.
And God was righteous to bring the flood. His judgments are always just.
"And Jehovah God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.... And the earth was filled with violence. And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth." (See Gen. 6:5,11,12)
God could observe not only the actions of everyone but also what was going on in their imaginations at all times. Amazing.
My concern is what can we learn in this age about this divine judgment and salvation extended to Noah and family. For in the last days it will be like the days of Noah according to Christ:
"For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which NOah entered into the ark. And they did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the SOn of Man be." (Matt. 24:37-39)
Something at that time came upon the world which the world had never seen. Likewise something is coming upon the world around the second coming of Christ which the world has never seen.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2008 9:34 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2008 10:44 PM jaywill has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 39 of 157 (488874)
11-18-2008 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jaywill
11-18-2008 10:32 PM


Re: The "flood" again
Sure there was a flood. Cultures all over the world have a tradition about such a flood. The collective cultural memory of many civilizations have a tradition about a devastating flood. I think it has some basis in history - in the flood in Noah's time.
No global flood. That is a tribal myth.
The most likely basis for the myth was the flooding of the Black Sea area somewhat over 7,000 years ago. From there the tale obviously grew in the telling.
That cultures around the world have local flood myths proves nothing; most civilizations are founded on large bodies of water. And floods happen. Look at New Orleans!
On the other hand, we have no worldwide archaeological or sedimentological evidence for a flood about 4,350 years ago (the consensus of biblical scholars for the date of the flood).
We have no evidence in natural history of such a flood either.
Human cultures and genetics also argue against such a depopulation/repopulation. Just in the area I work (western US) there are a number of archaeological sites with mtDNA evidence from before to after the date of the purported flood--and no change in mtDNA or the human cultures across that time period. Rather, there is continuity of just about everything--fauna and flora, human cultures, mtDNA, etc.
Face it, the evidence against a global flood is overwhelming. It is a tribal myth, not a real event for which there is documented evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jaywill, posted 11-18-2008 10:32 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jaywill, posted 11-18-2008 11:24 PM Coyote has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 40 of 157 (488879)
11-18-2008 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
11-18-2008 10:44 PM


Re: The "flood" again
No global flood. That is a tribal myth.
I only said flood.
I no longer am concerned with whether it extended over the face of the whole globe or not. A flood is a flood. And judgment is judgment.
And I would be concerned if there were no scoffers like yourself to deny what the Bible has told me.
The most likely basis for the myth was the flooding of the Black Sea area somewhat over 7,000 years ago. From there the tale obviously grew in the telling.
The myths that you refer to could conceivably have their origin in what is discribed in the Bible. The question is who copied who ?
I think the account was remembered by those saved and was dispersed into the cultures after the flood. They embellished the account according to local needs.
I think the Bible has the true account of what happened. And the multitude of myths of striking similarity at times, have the biblical account as the true historical source of the legend.
That cultures around the world have local flood myths proves nothing; most civilizations are founded on large bodies of water. And floods happen. Look at New Orleans!
Of there are many floods. There is even more than one flood in the Bible. No one is suggesting that the flood of Noah's time was the only flood to occur and be memorable.
The Johnstown Flood/s were also notable. But the Johnstown flood/s do no cause me to say "There therefore was no flood in Noah's time."
On the other hand, we have no worldwide archaeological or sedimentological evidence for a flood about 4,350 years ago (the consensus of biblical scholars for the date of the flood).
My reasons for believing in the flood are less geological or scientific and have more to do with the integrity of Jesus Christ.
If the flood was taken seriously by Jesus, then I have to take it seriously. The integrity of Jesus is beyond questioning to me.
Basically, I came to believe the Old Testament by firstly appreciating the sinless and honest character and wisdom of Jesus Christ. Eventually, I made the decision that if Jesus believed something in the Old Testament, I should also believe it.
We have no evidence in natural history of such a flood either.
I wouldn't be swayed by that if it was true. I am not sure it is.
Human cultures and genetics also argue against such a depopulation/repopulation. Just in the area I work (western US) there are a number of archaeological sites with mtDNA evidence from before to after the date of the purported flood--and no change in mtDNA or the human cultures across that time period. Rather, there is continuity of just about everything--fauna and flora, human cultures, mtDNA, etc.
My basic attitude is that science is man's invention. And the Bible is God's revelation. First I have to understand what is actually being said by God's revelation. That takes some work. For often people just have traditional assumptions which do not match what the Bible actually says.
Now if there is a descrepency between what science says and what the Bible says, I feel the error must be on the part of man's invention. That is because God knows all the facts.
Face it, the evidence against a global flood is overwhelming. It is a tribal myth, not a real event for which there is documented evidence.
Whether it was actually over the surface of the entire planet may be an interesting discussion. The Bible says that the queen of the south came from the ends of the earth. By today's standards that was under several hundred miles away if I am not mistaken.
So I don't know if it as global in the sense of modern geography. But it was the world as men alive knew it for certain. They were judged by God. Noah and his family were saved in the ark.
And the ark is a type and symbol of Christ.
"Now these things happened o them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." (1 Cor. 10:11)
The flood of Genesis happened and was written down for the admonition and instruction of believers in the Son of God.
"Now these things occured as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they lusted." (1 Cor. 10:6)
In general the Old Testament is needed to see that there are consequences to our sinning. Sin is an abomination to God. And we need to see individually, society wise, and world wide wise, that there are consequeces from from God for sins.
I take the flood account as incentive to press further into the experience and enjoyment of Christ.
The apostle Peter warns also that in the last days scoffers and mockers will come mocking that the Bible is false:
"Knowing this first, that in the last of days mockers will come with mocking going according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue in this way from the beginning of creation." (2 Peter 3:3,4)
The basic prinicple of this kind of mocking skepticism is to teach that there are really no consequences from God for sins. Flat out denials of the flood of Noah's day is probably driven by the desire that there would be no judgment from God for our sins.
My approach is rather to study the salvation in Christ rather than to find reasons to deny that God has and will again pass righteous judgment upon the world.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2008 10:44 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2008 11:33 PM jaywill has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 41 of 157 (488881)
11-18-2008 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jaywill
11-18-2008 11:24 PM


Re: The "flood" again
My basic attitude is that science is man's invention. And the Bible is God's revelation. First I have to understand what is actually being said by God's revelation. That takes some work. For often people just have traditional assumptions which do not match what the Bible actually says.
Now if there is a descrepency between what science says and what the Bible says, I feel the error must be on the part of man's invention. That is because God knows all the facts.
quote:
Belief gets in the way of learning.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jaywill, posted 11-18-2008 11:24 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 11-19-2008 5:43 AM Coyote has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 42 of 157 (488894)
11-19-2008 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Coyote
11-18-2008 11:33 PM


Re: The "flood" again
In the real important decisions of life
I trust in Jesus Christ over Robert A. Heinlien.
Though he seems an interesting fellow, and somewhat a seeker in his own life for the truth.
"Heinlein started to study physics at the graduate school of U.C.L.A. He left the school without completing his studies and worked in odd jobs in mining and real estate without real success. At the age of thirty-two, he turned his hand to the writing science fiction."
You know eventually you will have to put your trust in someone.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Coyote, posted 11-18-2008 11:33 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by greentwiga, posted 06-08-2009 11:29 AM jaywill has not replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 43 of 157 (511221)
06-08-2009 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jaywill
11-19-2008 5:43 AM


Re: The "flood" again
There was a flood. History records it in the Sumerian writings. Science has found evidence of it in two Sumerian cities. (It wasn't the Black sea - that very interesting flood never receded.) The Sumerian flood fits all the Biblical statements. As for a God who would allow it, we have a God who created man in his image, with free will. I was at Niagara falls and read about an incident. A man took two kids on a boat on the river. He got close and people on shore started warning them but they ignored it. Soon they capsized and onlookers cried "swim to me, I'll pull you out." They rescued one child. The other two people went over. The second child somehow survived and was rescued, but the man died. God now sends us "prophets." In this case he uses scientists to warn us of overpopulation and environmental degradation. Will we listen better than Sumer did? Will we die in the millions or billions because we refuse to listen? Will we blame God because we refused to listen?
Edited by greentwiga, : typos

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 11-19-2008 5:43 AM jaywill has not replied

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 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2009 11:34 AM greentwiga has not replied
 Message 48 by Rahvin, posted 06-08-2009 12:16 PM greentwiga has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 44 of 157 (511222)
06-08-2009 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by greentwiga
06-08-2009 11:29 AM


Re: The "flood" again
There was a flood. History records it in the Sumerian writings. Science has found evidence of it in two Sumerian cities.
Any chance you have any sources to back up any of these assertions?
I was at Niagara falls and read about an incident. A man took two kids on a boat on the river. He got close and people on shore started warning them but they ignored it. Soon they capsized and onlookers cried "swim to me, I'll pull you out." They rescued one child. The other two people went over. The second child somehow survived and was rescued, but the man died.
And the purpose of this little anecdote was????

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by greentwiga, posted 06-08-2009 11:29 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 45 of 157 (511223)
06-08-2009 11:55 AM


Certainly:
The gods were angry at mankind so they sent a flood to destroy him. The god Ea, warned Utnapishtim and instructed him to build an enormous boat to save himself, his family, and "the seed of all living things." He does so, and the gods brought rain which caused the water to rise for many days. When the rains subsided, the boat landed on a mountain, and Utnapishtim set loose first a dove, then a swallow, and finally a raven, which found land. The god Ishtar, created the rainbow and placed it in the sky, as a reminder to the gods and a pledge to mankind that there would be no more floods. See the text Epic of Gilgamesh: Sumerian Flood Myth.
Epic of Gilgamesh Sumerian Flood Myth: HistoryWiz Primary Source: Ancient Mesopotamia
This next site discusses archaeological evidence. Wooley, as usual was wrong but the other two sites Kish and Shruppak are possibilities. Mind you, this site doesn't necessarily support the conclusion that those floods were connected to the Biblical flood or even the Sumerian flood but it evenhandedly disparages scientists who won't look at the evidence either.
The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence | National Center for Science Education
I personally always search for science, history, etc that backs up my statements. Always feel free to ask.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Blank lines.

Replies to this message:
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