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Author Topic:   coded information in DNA
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 334 (510830)
06-03-2009 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 9:13 PM


Except the sequencing of base pairs, producing coded information. Do you have an example other than DNA?
Yes. I said. Ev-er-y-thing. Whenever we have knowledge of how anything happened, it never turns out to involve a violation of the laws of nature.
You can't get more empirical evidence than that.
This assumes the coded information in DNA *DID* arise through the laws of nature, this is what we are questioning. We wouldn't be having this discussion right now if we already knew.
Let me restate that more carefully. Whenever we have knowledge of how a code came into existence, we know that it came into existence without violating the laws of nature. 100% of the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-03-2009 9:13 PM WordBeLogos has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 137 of 334 (510847)
06-04-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by WordBeLogos
06-03-2009 10:25 PM


Re: Burden of Proof
There is nothing in the physico-chemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences.
And here we see your thesis boiled down to the quintessence of dumb.
Show me one thing in the replication, transcription, and translation of DNA that is not explicable in terms of the chemistry of the molecules involved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-03-2009 10:25 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-04-2009 7:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 151 of 334 (510950)
06-05-2009 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by WordBeLogos
06-04-2009 7:39 PM


Re: Burden of Proof
There is none.
Then stop writing like there is. You wrote:
There is nothing in the physico-chemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences.
But DNA, and its transcription and translation, are in the "physico-chemical world". Fairies and angels are not involved in any stage of the process.
The question that we can’t answer, is where the code came from in the first place.
If you admit that you can't answer that, I think we're done here.
The question of where the molecule came from and how it operates is an important one but not relevant to the discussion at hand.
But they're the same question. The origin of the code, and the origin of the molecules that instantiate the code, are the same thing. If the DNA and the mechanisms of transcription and translation didn't exist, then we would not be having this discussion.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 147 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-04-2009 7:39 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-05-2009 8:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 189 of 334 (511349)
06-09-2009 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by WordBeLogos
06-08-2009 9:14 PM


All of human observation tells us that information systems, languages and codes, always come from an intelligent source.
As of now, observing that all naturalistic explanations have failed to explain the origin of biological information, intelligence stands alone as the *ONLY* known process to produce such information intense systems.
All of human observation tells us that information systems, languages and codes, always come from sources that do not break the laws of nature.
As of now, observing that all supernaturalistic explanations have failed to explain the origin of biological information, natural processes stand alone as the *ONLY* known processes to produce such information intense systems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-08-2009 9:14 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 8:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 211 of 334 (511433)
06-09-2009 6:08 PM


Let's Make It Easier ...
WordBeLogos has failed, so far, to point out any example of a code, the origin of which we know by observation, that has a supernatural origin.
Let me make it even easier for him.
WBL, can you point out any thing ... anything at all, the origin of which we know by observation, that has a supernatural origin?
Anything whatsoever?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 8:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 226 of 334 (511547)
06-10-2009 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by WordBeLogos
06-09-2009 8:46 PM


*Operating* through, and *originating* from, are two different things.
Quite so. And I am talking about the origins of codes.
This is why I used the phrase "come from", rather than "operate through" when I said:
All of human observation tells us that information systems, languages and codes, always come from sources that do not break the laws of nature.
A supernatural explanation is inferred.
Wrongly.
Natural processes do not stand alone as the *ONLY* known process, they have never been observed to produce information intense systems.
This is absolutely, 100%, incorrect.
We have never, ever observed any code being produced in a way that violates the laws of nature.
We have never, ever observed anything whatsoever being produced in a way that violates the laws of nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 8:46 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-14-2009 12:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 227 of 334 (511548)
06-10-2009 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by WordBeLogos
06-09-2009 8:58 PM


Re: Let's Make It Easier ...
The universe.
Did you just claim to have observed the origin of the Universe?
I guess you must be God.
I'd always thought of him as being smarter.
The laws of nature did not exist prior to their creation in this universe.
Assertion is not evidence.
The creation of the universe was a supernatural event.
Assertion is not evidence.
The existence of the supernatural is a fact.
Assertion is not evidence.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-09-2009 8:58 PM WordBeLogos has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 228 of 334 (511552)
06-10-2009 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Admin
06-10-2009 8:39 AM


Re: Topic Reminder
This topic is about coded information in DNA. Please take discussion about evidence for the supernatural to another thread, or propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics.
I think it has a certain relevance.
If WordBeLogos started a thread entitled: "Disappearance Of Socks", in which he proposed the hypothesis that his missing socks were being eaten by dragons, thus proving the existence of dragons ... and if I pointed out that no-one had ever seen a dragon ... then it would make little sense for you to complain that the topic was missing socks, and that the evidence, or lack thereof, of dragons belonged in a different thread. For the fact that there is no evidence for dragons is highly germane to the question of whether their alleged sockivorous habits can account for WordBeLogos's missing socks.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 239 of 334 (512043)
06-13-2009 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by WordBeLogos
06-13-2009 6:46 PM


There's only two possibilities:
1) DNA was produced by the sort of supernatural processes that we never, ever, ever see occurring, unlike any other code the origin of which is known to us.
2) DNA was produced in accordance with the natural laws that we see operating around us all the time and that we have never, ever, ever seen broken, like every other code the origin of which is known to us.
Of these, *ONLY* one, #2, is supported by the scientific method of induction.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-13-2009 6:46 PM WordBeLogos has replied

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 Message 258 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-14-2009 12:56 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 242 of 334 (512046)
06-13-2009 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by WordBeLogos
06-13-2009 7:11 PM


Not until we can answer the question, is life natural or supernatural.
Life is, of course, natural. How could anything be more natural?
Which laws of nature do you suppose are broken by life?
Take me for example. I'm alive. Can I walk on water? Can I raise the dead? Can I multiply loaves and fishes? Is there one single action that I can perform that breaks the laws of nature?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-13-2009 7:11 PM WordBeLogos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-14-2009 1:08 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 267 of 334 (512095)
06-14-2009 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by WordBeLogos
06-14-2009 1:08 AM


The initial information, in DNA, which produces life, cannot be derived from the laws physics and chemistry.
I notice that you have provided no proof for this statement.
Unless you have an example Dr. You seem unable to see the circular reasoning you continue to use over and over.
Au contraire. I am able to see the circular reasoning that you continue to use over and over. This is why I am not buying your argument.
You can bring forth immaterial information. Which yes, gets brought into the physical world OBEYING ALL THE LAWS OF NATURE through your physical body.
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-14-2009 1:08 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 268 of 334 (512097)
06-14-2009 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by WordBeLogos
06-14-2009 12:00 AM


Circular reasoning yet again Dr.
Refusal to participate in your circular reasoning does not constitute circular reasoning.
Information is recorded in matter and energy, which obey the laws of nature.
Thank you for admitting this.
Who said we did? The one thing we havne't observed being produced is the one thing in question, coded information in DNA.
Right, so we reason from what we have observed to what we haven't. Since we have seen the production of many codes, and none of them have been produced by magic, we conclude that in the case of a code the origin of which we have not observed, it most likely was not produced by magic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-14-2009 12:00 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 283 of 334 (512302)
06-16-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by WordBeLogos
06-16-2009 2:10 AM


This was observed by Yockey in his 2005 book. Look up the laws of physics, in any physics book, and you will see no one has ever shown how to get from the laws of physics to the genetic code.
No-one's ever shown how to get from the laws of physics to a fried egg either. That doesn't mean that it's miraculous, it means that we're not in a position to accomplish such a pointless feat of reductionism.
All codes infer intelligence.
How often are you going to go round the same little circle of unreason?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-16-2009 2:10 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 296 of 334 (512433)
06-18-2009 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by WordBeLogos
06-17-2009 1:14 AM


DNA is the Mother Code.
All hail the Great Mother!
How should we worship the Mother Code of DNA?
Oh ... wait ... was that not what you meant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-17-2009 1:14 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 298 of 334 (512436)
06-18-2009 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by WordBeLogos
06-18-2009 3:11 AM


In your own words please, according to the rules of this form.
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by WordBeLogos, posted 06-18-2009 3:11 AM WordBeLogos has not replied

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