Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christian Laws
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 392 (512211)
06-15-2009 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
06-12-2009 10:04 AM


John 13:34
Thanks for starting this thread Peg. Because I tend to take time to prepare my posts, I won't be able to address each law in a single post. So a post may address one or more of the laws mentioned. It doesn't mean I am ignoring any one law listed.
In the "Are We Prisoners of Sin" thread, Peg brought up the concept of Christian Laws and God's Laws.
PurpleDawn writes:
Peg writes:
Message 344 Anyone who wants to benefit from that salvation MUST put their faith in Jesus Christ and must follow him. This goes for Gentiles too...they must submit to Christian law and the teaching of Christs Apostles. Gods laws and mans are quite different and just because a gentile follows the laws of their land does not mean that they have a righteous standing with God. They must follow Gods laws in order to obtain that. Remember that it is 'Faith' in God that counts a person as righteous, not works of any law.
To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs.
What I'm reading is that following God's law does not make one righteous or get one on the list for resurrection, only faith in Jesus Christ can get one on the list. BUT, to show faith in God, one must adopt his laws or live as he directs. So we still have to follow "the law" even though it doesn't get us a spot, but yet it does. See the contradiction? Again, make up your mind.
As I understand what Peg is saying, to be declared righteous before the Christian God one must submit to God's Laws, Christian Laws, and the teachings of the Apostles. So I had asked that the laws that Christians are held accountable to on judgment day be listed. I stated my reasons for wanting this list in Message 388 of that thread.
PurpleDawn writes:
I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day.
I keep asking because Christians keep claiming that the Mosaic Law came to and end, but keep holding people up to portions of that law.
I keep asking because Christians avoid the issue.
When I say law, I mean something legally binding and enforced by a controlling authority.
Law - a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority
Principle - a: a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption b (1): a rule or code of conduct
Standard - something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example
Principles and standards aren't necessarily binding or enforced by a controlling authority.
The Mosaic Laws in the OT were written as laws that had consequences that would be enforced by the controlling human authority and sometimes by God. The Written Torah Law Was Only A Small Proportion of Jewish Law in the First Century.
Although it was of course the bedrock of Jewish law, THE God breathed WRITTEN Torah-law which we have in our Bibles, was only about 3.5% of Jewish Torah-Law during the times recorded in the New Testament.
The Oral Law was also enforced by the controlling human authority.
Looking at the "list" that Peg provided, the word law seems to have lost its legality.
Christian Laws according to Peg.
Interesting that you didn't mention the two most important commandments supposedly expressed by Jesus to one of the teachers of the law depicted in Mark 12:28-31 and restated in Matthew 22:34-40. Of course those two are part of what you call the Mosaic Law.
1. John 13:34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another.
The Gospel according to John is estimated to be written 90-120CE. What authority makes this an enforceable law?
The problems I see with this being a legal law is that:
1. Jesus is talking to his 11 disciples after Judas left and seems to mean amongst themselves, not necessarily others.
2. The verb "love" as used today carries a more limited meaning ( to hold dear) than the Greek "agapaō" seems to carry. (to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly). Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agapē is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another. The Christian version is amongst Christians, not necessarily all mankind.
3. We don't really know how Jesus "loved" his disciples. There are no specifics for people to know what they are being judged against.
This "new" commandment doesn't seem to be any different than the love your neighbor as yourself commandment (Leviticus 19:18) that Jesus said was the second most important commandment taken by the Mishnah (a central text of the Jewish oral law) to refer to good deeds, willingness to sacrifice one's life rather than commit certain serious transgressions, willingness to sacrifice all of one's possessions, and being grateful to the Lord despite adversity (tractate Berachoth 9:5).
So this one is an OT "law" brought forward. Nothing new. Who enforces this law?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 06-12-2009 10:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Peg, posted 06-15-2009 9:48 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 392 (512251)
06-15-2009 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Peg
06-15-2009 9:48 AM


Authority
quote:
The christian congregation became the controlling authority.
Who was given the authority to make laws and when were they given the authority and by whom?
quote:
The qualified christian minister was told to help those other christians if they were sinning. Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness
The modern day Levite. Interesting.
1 Corinthians 5:11 is equivalent to Leviticus 18:8
Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife, that would dishonor your father. Leviticus 18:29 - Everyone who does any of these detestable things--such persons must be cut off from their people.
Again, Paul is merely upholding Jewish law. So even the supposed consequences are from the OT.
In the many Protestant churches I've been to, I have yet to see anyone excommunicated for continuing to misbehave in their life outside the church. Have you actually witnessed this taking place in your country? In the Protestant churches I've been to the preacher doesn't even hold the power to do such a thing without the approval of the Church Board.
So far the rules still come from the Jewish laws and today there really isn't any clear authority on who can cast out members or that any church does consistently.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Peg, posted 06-15-2009 9:48 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 2:43 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 392 (512252)
06-15-2009 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Peg
06-15-2009 9:48 AM


Re: John 13:34
quote:
But yes, Love is the fundamental law of the Christ. He said all the law hung on the principle of Love which is why he could say that two greatest commands were to Love God and neighbor. Its not surprising to see some similarities between the Mosaic Law and the Law of the Christ.
Verses please!
Love is not a law.! Please be specific when defining a law. There is no place for metaphor in a law. That's what I mean by no clarity.
Jesus did not say in either of those verses that the law hung on the principle of love. He said (in Matthew 22:40 only) that all the law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
quote:
Jesus explained the Mosaic Law and lived it. But the reason why it was not longer applicable was because it required animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sins and as an approach to God.
The Jews today don't follow the sacrificial laws anymore, but they did continue to follow the rest within the constraints of the governing bodies and their oral law grew with them based on their Jewish laws again within the contraints of their governing body.
You have already shown me three Christian laws that are taken from the Jewish laws.
I find it interesting that you didn't address my issues concerning John 13:34 in Message 6 at all, nor did you clarify the meaning of love in the context of John 13:34.
PurpleDawn writes:
1. Jesus is talking to his 11 disciples after Judas left and seems to mean amongst themselves, not necessarily others.
2. The verb "love" as used today carries a more limited meaning ( to hold dear) than the Greek "agapaō" seems to carry. (to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly). Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agapē is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another. The Christian version is amongst Christians, not necessarily all mankind.
3. We don't really know how Jesus "loved" his disciples. There are no specifics for people to know what they are being judged against.
Please address these concerns.
Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Peg, posted 06-15-2009 9:48 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 3:05 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 392 (512254)
06-15-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
06-12-2009 10:04 AM


Galatians 6:2
Remember we are talking legal laws. Laws that when God sits in judgment Christians will be held accountable to these laws.
2. Galatians 6:2 "Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ"
Again you need to be specific. The law of Christ doesn't really mean anything if there isn't really any legal law. There is law of sin, law of death, law of the spirit, etc. These aren't legal laws.
This verse seems to refer more to a principle as opposed to an enforcable law. Paul is telling those who are spiritually strong to help those who are not. He said should, not must.
Brother, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself or you also my be tempted. Carry each other's burdens and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
If he's referring to the love your neighbor rule again as the law of Christ, then this isn't a new law either.
The problems I see with this being a legal law is that for this to be a fair law, every person would need to be capable of carrying another's burden; even those whose burdens are being carried, otherwise it isn't a fair law. Also we would need a definition of burden. Are we talking physical burdens or just spiritual burdens? What constitutes a spiritual burden? Actual legal laws need to be concise. That's the only way they can be fair and balanced.
Wouldn't this be a law by your standard? I haven't heard this one used as a law before, but given how you're picking them it might as well be.
Galations 6:6
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
If it's not, why not?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 06-12-2009 10:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 4:07 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 392 (512256)
06-15-2009 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
06-12-2009 10:04 AM


Matthew 28:18
quote:
3. 1John 4:21 "21 And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also"
_____________
4. 1John 3:23 "Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and be loving one another"
These two fall under the love your neighbor rule.
5. Matt 28:18 "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying:...Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU
So what is the law? Jesus gave his disciples a job. This has nothing to do with us.
The disciples were supposed to teach people to obey everything Jesus had commanded them. Since the disciples didn't teach Paul, it is hard to say what the disciples taught the Jews or if they did their job.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 06-12-2009 10:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 7:59 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 392 (512260)
06-15-2009 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
06-12-2009 10:04 AM


Acts 15:28
7. Acts 15:28 "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication"
This was to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Abstain from things sacrificed to idols.
Abstain from blood.(Lev. 7:26)
Abstain from things strangled.
Why are these part of Christian law today? Are we accountable before God concerning these? Unless it is Kosher, there is blood in the meats we consume. Besides, I thought the food laws didn't pertain to us. Inconsistency.
Abstain from sexual immorality. Again, clarity. What specifies sexual immorality in Christian law? Then and today.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 06-12-2009 10:04 AM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 392 (512262)
06-15-2009 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
06-12-2009 10:04 AM


Ephesians & Romans & Timothy
6. Eph 5:33 "let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband"
_____________
8. Eph 4:29 "Let a rotten saying not proceed out of your mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers."
Again the love one another scenerio. These, as the others, may be specifications under the love one another verse, but are they to be enforced by God? We already have secular laws against liable and slander.
What makes this a Christian law that we will be judged against before God?
9. Romans 13:13 "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities"
Now this one does put us in a pickle. Many Christians break this one.
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authroities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authroity is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will being judgment on themselves. ...
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect, if honor, then honor.
If this is a law that Christians will be held accountable for on judgment day. Many are in trouble.
What makes this a legal law?
ABE: Might as well add this one.
10. 1Timothy 3:3-12 (these requirements put polygamy on the outer)
"be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 8 be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.
11 Women should likewise be serious, not slanderous, moderate in habits, faithful in all things.
12 Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife
These are requirements for overseers and deacons in the early churches. What makes it a legal law that people are held account to before God?
Edited by purpledawn, : Timothy

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 06-12-2009 10:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 4:24 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 392 (512264)
06-15-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Peg
06-15-2009 5:43 AM


Re: Law & Order
quote:
the laws are written on hearts, but a person must first learn what those christian principles and moral standards are, otherwise how will they get there?
You really crack me up sometimes.
Jeremiah 31:33-34
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their Good, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Notice the bolded words. The implication is that the laws would then be instinctive, no need for teaching.
But that also strengthens my point, that if there are principles and standards (not laws) that need to be taught, the criteria needs to be clear as to what one will be held accountable to on judgment day (Laws) and what is just a better way to behave in our day to day dealings (principles and standards).

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Peg, posted 06-15-2009 5:43 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Bailey, posted 06-15-2009 11:34 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 19 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 12:28 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 24 of 392 (512289)
06-16-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
06-16-2009 2:43 AM


Re: Authority
quote:
The ultimate authority is God Almighty. Paul explained that Jesus is subject to that one at 1Cor11:3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God
But God has given Jesus great authority who in turn has delegated some of his authority to his 12 apostles. The authority he assigned to them was that of teaching people.
I understand that and the OT presents God as giving them the laws. What you're not showing me is the authority for the laws you are listing, although most have been from the Torah anyway, since you stated that the mosaic law has been removed. BTW, there was a lot more to the Jewish legal system of the time than the Mosaic Laws.
In your opening post you stated: The mosaic law was fortold to be removed and a new covenant, a new avenue of approach to God, was to be put in place.
I'm looking for the link from God to the person who has the authority to make the new laws (not principles or standards). If that person is Jesus, then we need the link to the person(s) that Jesus gave the authority to make new laws (not principles or standards) for the followers.
quote:
its not strange that many christian laws are similar to the mosaic, afterall the mosaic laws were Gods standards....they are still his standards. Jesus lived by those standards, loved those standards and taught those standards.
The difference between the two covenants was choice/free will. If you were born a jew, you had no choice but to follow the mosaic law. You didnt have to love it, you just had to obey it.
The new covenant was purely by choice. Only those who loved Christ would want to follow it.
Don't confuse laws and covenants. A covenant is a contract. The Mosaic laws are not a covenant. As part of the Mosaic covenant, they were required to follow the laws. They were the basis for the laws of a nation. At the time of Jesus, Israel was no longer an independent nation.
If, as you say, the Mosaic law is still God's standard (something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example) and Jesus taught that standard; then Christians should be following all those standards, not just the ones that happened to be mentioned by later writers. What about the Jewish laws that developed from the Mosaic Laws? Did Jesus also teach those standards? What evidence do you have of what Jesus did and didn't teach?
That's a big part of the problem. To be held accountable on judgment day to laws or teachings we don't have record of is not fair and balanced.
What clearly shows what we will be held accountable to on judgment day?
quote:
I certainly have experienced it. I was excommunicated myself for choosing a relationship outside of the church. I have since been reinstated and am happily a part of the congregation again.
So what law did you break and where is it listed in the Bible?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 2:43 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 5:19 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 26 of 392 (512301)
06-16-2009 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Peg
06-16-2009 3:05 AM


Re: John 13:34
quote:
According to the christians, Love was a law, it was the greatest law because Love would prevent a person from breaking other laws. This is likely why the prophet Jerimiah says "the law will be written on their hearts" because those who loved God would choose to follow Christ.
No the Christians did not teach that love was a law. Agape your neighbor as yourself is referred to as a royal law by an unknown writer. This doesn't translate into love as a legal law for Christians today.
Your Romans 8:13 is not what you quoted. Apparently you meant Romans 13:9.
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Love your neighbor as yourself is a saying, not a law. Paul tells his audience that this saying sums up the commandments. Does this mean we don't need to know what the commandments actually are? If we are to be held accountable, then we need to know.
Paul personifies love or benevolence really. A benevolent spirit would not be inclined to harm others. That doesn't make it a legal law. If one follows the legal laws or commandments listed, it doesn't make any difference whether they were done willingly or begrudgingly. They were done. A benevolent spirit might make it easier, but which is required by God, the spirit or the action?
You agreed with the Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agapē is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another.
A better synonym for agape is benevolence (disposition to do good) or benevolent.
In Leviticus 19 the passage actually reads: " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
This very clearly does not mean to be benevolent towards all mankind as yourself. It encompasses a narrow circle of people. That's the text, not me.
quote:
1. Jesus had more then just his 12 apostles as followers. The fact that Jesus commissioned the apostles to teach and baptize shows that it extended to all mankind.
Your mythology is showing again. John 13:34 takes place at the last supper, at the most he is speaking to the group who could fit within the room besides the 12. The commission, which only shows up in the late gospel of John, is still limited to the group in the room with Jesus at the most. Remember Jesus also supposedly said: "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." The benevolence is still in treatment of each other. Again, that's the text, not me.
quote:
3. At John 15:13 Jesus said "No one has love [agpe] greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends. You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you."
the sort of love that Jesus showed was 'unconditional' That is the sort of love they were to show. Thats what agape means. Its a love based on principle as opposed to affection for instance. Jesus gave his life because he had love based on principle (agape)
From the scripture it is only unconditional for those who are a member of the club or believe in Christ. As I said, it is a limited group that this applies to. Aside from giving up his life, we don't know how Jesus "loved" his disciples.
Do you understand that my concern is that Christian "laws" are vague and inconsistent?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 3:05 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 5:42 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 27 of 392 (512313)
06-16-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
06-16-2009 4:07 AM


Re: Galatians 6:2
quote:
this verse in galatians shows that the 'law of the Christ' is closely aligned with love. 'Go on carrying the burdens of one another'
The way they treated each other would determine whether they were fulfilling the Law of Christ or not.
What burden means is irrelevant. This love/benevolence thing is a way of not being specific. Allowing churches to keep or throw out what they want.
The law of Christ is not a legal law with specifics or consequences. Stop confusing creative writing with a true legal law.
Law of sin, law of death, law of attraction, law of Christ, law of love, etc. These are no legal laws.
What you are calling a law of love is nothing more than a teaching that teaches people (or should be anyway) the frame of mind they need to be in to easily follow "the laws".
Like Paul said in Romans 13:9
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
They are summed up in this one rule (not a law). With a benevolent spirit one is more inclined to follow the laws (whatever they are).
Christianity is not a nation, it does not have its own legal system.
quote:
If one acts with love, they likely will share what they have. The first century christians practiced giving and charitable acts. They gave of their resources to those in physical need. Giving is just another aspect of Love.
Yes they were following the laws of Moses and Jewish law. This wasn't something new. It may not have been in practice as well as it should have been, but it wasn't new.
quote:
If one acts with love, they likely will share what they have.
But is it required?
This is the same rhetoric that says believers will be judged, but doesn't give a standard by which the believer will be judged.
My guess is all your posts are going to deal with the Love theme and not really address the issue.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 4:07 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 11:35 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 28 of 392 (512316)
06-16-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Peg
06-16-2009 4:24 AM


Re: Ephesians & Romans & Timothy
quote:
they certainly will be enforced by God and for good reason.
1 John 4:20, 21 "If anyone makes the statement: 'I love God,' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.

Why do these unknown later authors have the authority to dictate law?
A law is specific and clearly tells the person what is expected and the consequences of such actions.
All you're giving me are behavioral teachings.
quote:
However, obedience is conditional. You may recall Jesus words "Pay therefore Caesars things to Caesar, But Gods things to God" Matt 22:15-21
Then it isn't a law if you can choose when to obey with out consequence from God.
quote:
So it shows that obedience is only to a point, God must be obeyed first.
But we don't have any clear laws from God to obey first. The clear laws that we do have and that have become a part of our own legal system in the US are also in the Mosaic Laws. Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness. We know what the consequences are.
quote:
notice how 'women' are included in that list....this shows that these requirements are not only for Overseers in the congregation, but for all christians in the congregation. they all were expected to abide by the laws and principles of the faith.
Please keep on task. It is irrelevant whether women are included or not. How are these requirements, for running or being an officer in the church, laws that people are accountable for before God on judgment day?
You really haven't been able to clearly show what laws a Christian will clearly be accountable for on judgment day.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 4:24 AM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 30 of 392 (512318)
06-16-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Peg
06-16-2009 7:59 AM


Re: Matthew 28:18
quote:
The job that Jesus gave his diciples was to make more diciples by teaching and baptizing them.
All first century christians were evangelizers.
Peter said at 2:21 In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.
Jesus was primarily a preacher. He taught people about Gods Kingdom. So a follower of Christ would also do this same work of evangelizing. The Apostles role was to teach all the disciples how to be preachers.
What is the law? A task and a law are two different things. Please stay on course. It is irrelevant who the 70 were.
You're giving authority to unknown writers. Why?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 7:59 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 6:02 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 392 (512321)
06-16-2009 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Bailey
06-16-2009 11:35 AM


Re: St.Paul & HaMachiach - principles, standards and laws
quote:
Three quick questions ...
What are the implications of classifying Paul's 'rule', 'Love your neighbor as yourself', as a principle or standard?
Also, what are the implications of classifying a commandment from the Anointed One as a law?
Should a commandment from HaMashiach be relegated as a standard or principle, or otherwise?
That is what this discussion is about.
A legal law is something that we must follow or suffer the consequences.
I showed in Message 6 the current definitions.
Law - a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority
Principle - a: a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption b (1): a rule or code of conduct
Standard - something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example
Principles and standards aren't necessarily binding or enforced by a controlling authority.
In religious writings and teachings creative uses of these words tend to create catch phrases that really have no meaning.
I want to know what Christian laws really carry weight.
The saying "Love your neighbor ..." is a good rule of thumb, which helps people to follow the laws of the land, but is not specific enough to be a law in and of itself. Even a summary of a law isn't the law one is held accountable to.
A commandment isn't automatically a law for the masses. Jesus commanding the disciples in front of him to do a task doesn't mean the command is a law that Christians will be held accountable to on judgment day.
Supposedly the Christian God is not a God of confusion.
Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 11:35 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 2:09 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 6:17 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 34 of 392 (512332)
06-16-2009 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Bailey
06-16-2009 2:09 PM


Re: St.Paul & HaMachiach - principles, standards and laws
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the saints
quote:
Perhaps I need to do this before any honest considerations of what laws are stated and what laws are valid within the Covenant presented in the name of Yeshua HaMashiach are attempted. If you don't mind, can you fill me in as to what premise Peg and yourself are working under exactly in this thread or whether that has been firmly established or otherwise?
See my comments in Message 6 which give a link to the start of the law issue.
Peg throws around the terms God's law, Christian law, man's law, Mosaic law; but doesn't can't actually list the laws of God that Christians are bound by today. She stated that God's laws must be followed to be deemed righteous, but she can't list the laws.
Peg also states, as many Christians do, that the Mosaic Laws have ended.
Since the Bible is the only source for the information, unless of course someone has a Moses style connection with God, the laws Christians should be following instead of the Mosaic laws should be clearly available.
Of course you've noticed the most of what Peg has listed are based on the Mosaic Laws or Jewish Laws. The Written Torah Law Was Only A Small Proportion of Jewish Law in the First Century.
Although it was of course the bedrock of Jewish law, THE God breathed WRITTEN Torah-law which we have in our Bibles, was only about 3.5% of Jewish Torah-Law during the times recorded in the New Testament.
I agree there has to be an obvious chain of authority if the words are not attributed to God as done in the OT.
How much of what the later unknown writers presented was actually God's law or man's law?
I'm still looking at plain text and what the writer was telling his audience.
Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 2:09 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 6:42 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 46 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 6:23 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024