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Author Topic:   Christian Laws
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 392 (512262)
06-15-2009 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
06-12-2009 10:04 AM


Ephesians & Romans & Timothy
6. Eph 5:33 "let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband"
_____________
8. Eph 4:29 "Let a rotten saying not proceed out of your mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers."
Again the love one another scenerio. These, as the others, may be specifications under the love one another verse, but are they to be enforced by God? We already have secular laws against liable and slander.
What makes this a Christian law that we will be judged against before God?
9. Romans 13:13 "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities"
Now this one does put us in a pickle. Many Christians break this one.
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authroities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authroity is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will being judgment on themselves. ...
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect, if honor, then honor.
If this is a law that Christians will be held accountable for on judgment day. Many are in trouble.
What makes this a legal law?
ABE: Might as well add this one.
10. 1Timothy 3:3-12 (these requirements put polygamy on the outer)
"be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 8 be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.
11 Women should likewise be serious, not slanderous, moderate in habits, faithful in all things.
12 Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife
These are requirements for overseers and deacons in the early churches. What makes it a legal law that people are held account to before God?
Edited by purpledawn, : Timothy

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 06-12-2009 10:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 4:24 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 392 (512264)
06-15-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Peg
06-15-2009 5:43 AM


Re: Law & Order
quote:
the laws are written on hearts, but a person must first learn what those christian principles and moral standards are, otherwise how will they get there?
You really crack me up sometimes.
Jeremiah 31:33-34
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their Good, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Notice the bolded words. The implication is that the laws would then be instinctive, no need for teaching.
But that also strengthens my point, that if there are principles and standards (not laws) that need to be taught, the criteria needs to be clear as to what one will be held accountable to on judgment day (Laws) and what is just a better way to behave in our day to day dealings (principles and standards).

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Replies to this message:
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Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 18 of 392 (512276)
06-15-2009 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
06-15-2009 4:33 PM


Re: Law & Order
Thank you for the exchange purpledawn.
Hope things are well with you ...
quote:
Jeremiah 31:33-34
" No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
The implication is that the laws would then be instinctive, no need for teaching.
[emphasis added]
One may expect to find the text reading, 'No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother saying, 'Know the ToRaH', providing the text was suggesting that ToRaH would be 'magically embedded' in our 'minds' - lol.
The word in the text used for 'know', or knowledge, yada appears to be referencing the identity of the God of this particular series of covenants (ie. no one in the Covenant will have to teach anyone a name for the God).
Athough that is not what we find in church, is it mostly what we find in Gospels chosen by the RCC? I know of verses saying things along the lines of 'call no one your father, because One is your Father and He is in Heaven', etc..
What verses do the RCC Gospels provide to support standard and principles, or laws, for teaching God's name?
But that also strengthens my point, that if there are principles and standards (not laws) that need to be taught, the criteria needs to be clear as to what one will be held accountable to on judgment day (Laws) and what is just a better way to behave in our day to day dealings (principles and standards).
I like the way this sentence was structured ... very salient.
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.

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Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 19 of 392 (512277)
06-16-2009 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
06-15-2009 4:33 PM


Re: Law & Order
Thank you for the exchange purpledawn ...
Hope things are well.
purpledawn writes:
Peg writes:
the laws are written on hearts, but a person must first learn what those christian principles and moral standards are, otherwise how will they get there?
You really crack me up sometimes.
quote:
Jeremiah 31:33-34
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their Good, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Notice the bolded words. The implication is that the laws would then be instinctive, no need for teaching.
This was an interesting interpretation which inspired me to share some feedback and critique.
I might add, the Hebrew word translated as heart and mind is often translated as 'inner parts', or the likes, as well. Strong's has it as a form of 'lebab' ...
quote:

1) inner man, mind, will, heart, soul, understanding
1a) inner part, midst
1a1) midst (of things)
1a2) heart (of man)
1a3) soul, heart (of man)
1a4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
1a5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
1a6) conscience
1a7) heart (of moral character)
1a8) as seat of appetites
1a9) as seat of emotions and passions
1a10) as seat of courage

Also, the Complete Jewish Bible w/ Rashi gives us 'heart', yet opts for 'in the midst', as opposed to 'mind' ...
quote:
30) Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.
31) Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.
32) For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
33) And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
34) So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the law of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.
35) If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time.

Ultimately, this may reinforce a notion that, at birth, the Father will 'write' or 'inscribe' His towrah, or law, within a human being.
However, an 'implication' being 'that the laws would then be instinctive' (aka, magically embedded) with 'no need for teaching seems to be only one interpretation.
Again, the word in the text used for 'know', or knowledge, yada appears to be referencing the identity of the God of this particular series of covenants (ie. no one in the Covenant will have to teach anyone a name for the God').
One may expect to find the text reading, 'No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother saying, 'Know the ToRaH', providing the text was suggesting that ToRaH would be 'magically embedded' in our 'minds'.
quote:

hrwt towrah or hrt torah
1) law, direction, instruction
1a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1a1) body of prophetic teaching
1a2) instruction in Messianic age
1a3) body of priestly direction or instruction
1a4) body of legal directives
1b) law
1b1) law of the burnt offering
1b2) of special law, codes of law
1c) custom, manner
1d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

So, if the Father is writin' and inscribin' on everybodies hearts, one may imagine a direct inference for people with hearts, or who 'have the heart', to do some reading. Perhaps one could say the people in the season of the Covenant being prophecied about may be required to align their 'conscience', 'hearts', 'inclinations', 'inner most parts', etc., with the 'towrah' that is declared to be placed 'in the midst' of them.
Yeshua HaMashiach is depicted as confirming that the Father will abide with a new Covenant obligation requiring Him to provide access to ToRaH, Nevi'im and Tehellim, as well as assist and instruct in the understanding of these readings to all who enter Covenant. He tells us not to be 'called Rabbi; for One is' our 'Teacher, and' we 'are all brothers'. Next we are admonished to call no one 'on earth' our father; 'for One is' our 'Father, He who is in heaven'.
Finally, we are advised against being 'called leaders; for One is' our 'Leader, that is, HaMashiach'. Yeshua HaMashiach is depicted as authoritatively defining a new Covenant through a reinterpretation of existing Hebrew documents, as the originals had been forged. It goes, simply, as follows ...
quote:
Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?
He said to him ...
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and first commandment.
And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
On these two commandments hang all the
law and the prophets.
As various Torah documents were forged, accordind to Yirmiyahu, Yisrael is eventually driven into the ground. Through the prior Covenant, the people are no longer able to keep their obligations to the Levite priesthood, or their God - as the priesthood in authority seemingly determines such a principle or standard.
The Deuteronomic & Mosaic laws, at this point, have been edited in such a way that the burden is much to bear upon the people and a new Covenant is prophecied by Yirmiyahu to replace the one 'that they broke'; the one the Father 'formed with their forefathers on the day' that He 'took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt' .
The thing is, the Father did not speak 'unto [their] fathers [the Levitical priesthood] nor commanded them in the day that He brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. These were the original requirements: Obey my voice and I will be your God and ye shall be my people and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you that it may be well unto you.
It appears that the strenuous burden of the excessive burnt offerings and sacrafices that were implemented outside of the authority of the Covenant were partially responsible for the collapse of the Levitical covenant and priesthood. In the end of matters, the fact that the prior Covenant agreement had been tampered with appears to be a significant factor, imho, in Yisrael's inability to become pleasing to God in their quest to serve and represent Him to their fullest extent.
I might suggest striking similarities in the dynamic between Yeshua's Covenant and the later covenants and creeds added through Pauline theology in our present landscape. Not that I really know that the Father is displeased, yet it is difficult for me to imagine He appreciated the Inquisitions presented in the name of HaMashiach as Pauline theology took root.
I gotta go get some strawberry shortcake ...
If you were here I'd make you one too
One Love

This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 20 of 392 (512280)
06-16-2009 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
06-15-2009 1:58 PM


Re: Authority
purpledawn writes:
Who was given the authority to make laws and when were they given the authority and by whom?
The ultimate authority is God Almighty. Paul explained that Jesus is subject to that one at 1Cor11:3But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God
But God has given Jesus great authority who in turn has delegated some of his authority to his 12 apostles. The authority he assigned to them was that of teaching people.
quote:
Matt 28:18And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU"
purpledawn writes:
The modern day Levite. Interesting.
1 Corinthians 5:11 is equivalent to Leviticus 18:8
its not strange that many christian laws are similar to the mosaic, afterall the mosaic laws were Gods standards....they are still his standards. Jesus lived by those standards, loved those standards and taught those standards.
The difference between the two covenants was choice/free will. If you were born a jew, you had no choice but to follow the mosaic law. You didnt have to love it, you just had to obey it.
The new covenant was purely by choice. Only those who loved Christ would want to follow it.
purpledawn writes:
In the many Protestant churches I've been to, I have yet to see anyone excommunicated for continuing to misbehave in their life outside the church. Have you actually witnessed this taking place in your country? In the Protestant churches I've been to the preacher doesn't even hold the power to do such a thing without the approval of the Church Board.
I certainly have experienced it. I was excommunicated myself for choosing a relationship outside of the church. I have since been reinstated and am happily a part of the congregation again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2009 1:58 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 06-16-2009 7:20 AM Peg has replied
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 21 of 392 (512281)
06-16-2009 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
06-15-2009 2:13 PM


Re: John 13:34
purpledawn writes:
Verses please!
Love is not a law.! Please be specific when defining a law. There is no place for metaphor in a law. That's what I mean by no clarity.
According to the christians, Love was a law, it was the greatest law because Love would prevent a person from breaking other laws. This is likely why the prophet Jerimiah says "the law will be written on their hearts" because those who loved God would choose to follow Christ.
quote:
James 2:8If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: "You must love your neighbor as yourself," YOU are doing quite well.
Romans 8:13 "...love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. 9For the [law code], "You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet," and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law's fulfillment.
purpledawn writes:
1. Jesus is talking to his 11 disciples after Judas left and seems to mean amongst themselves, not necessarily others.
2. The verb "love" as used today carries a more limited meaning ( to hold dear) than the Greek "agapaō" seems to carry. (to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly). Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agapē is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another. The Christian version is amongst Christians, not necessarily all mankind.
3. We don't really know how Jesus "loved" his disciples. There are no specifics for people to know what they are being judged against.
1. Jesus had more then just his 12 apostles as followers. The fact that Jesus commissioned the apostles to teach and baptize shows that it extended to all mankind.
2. The invitation goes out to all mankind. christianity isnt limited to one race. Its for all mankind and its extended to all mankind.
3. At John 15:13 Jesus said "No one has love [agpe] greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends. You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you."
the sort of love that Jesus showed was 'unconditional' That is the sort of love they were to show. Thats what agape means. Its a love based on principle as opposed to affection for instance. Jesus gave his life because he had love based on principle (agape)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2009 2:13 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by purpledawn, posted 06-16-2009 9:08 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 22 of 392 (512282)
06-16-2009 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
06-15-2009 3:08 PM


Re: Galatians 6:2
purpledawn writes:
2. Galatians 6:2 "Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ"
Again you need to be specific. The law of Christ doesn't really mean anything if there isn't really any legal law.
this verse in galatians shows that the 'law of the Christ' is closely aligned with love. 'Go on carrying the burdens of one another'
The way they treated each other would determine whether they were fulfilling the Law of Christ or not.
purpledawn writes:
The problems I see with this being a legal law is that for this to be a fair law, every person would need to be capable of carrying another's burden; even those whose burdens are being carried, otherwise it isn't a fair law.
that depends what the burden is...if you read a bit further in verse 5 Paul says "For each one will carry his own load," The word Paul used for "load" is phortion, signifying something that is to be borne or carried, without any reference to the weight of the thing.
But for 'burden' ba're, a Greek word denoting something heavy.
So there is a distinction between "burdens" and "load" in these verses.
A load is what is expected, but a burden is something in addition to what you might normally carry, thus weighing you down. So Paul isnt telling christians to carry the responsibilities of others. Rather he's saying to support them when they are under trials. That could be a shoulder to cry on for instance.
purpledawn writes:
Wouldn't this be a law by your standard? I haven't heard this one used as a law before, but given how you're picking them it might as well be.
Galations 6:6
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
If it's not, why not?
If one acts with love, they likely will share what they have. The first century christians practiced giving and charitable acts. They gave of their resources to those in physical need. Giving is just another aspect of Love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2009 3:08 PM purpledawn has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 23 of 392 (512284)
06-16-2009 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by purpledawn
06-15-2009 4:19 PM


Re: Ephesians & Romans & Timothy
purpledawn writes:
Again the love one another scenerio. These, as the others, may be specifications under the love one another verse, but are they to be enforced by God?
they certainly will be enforced by God and for good reason. [quote]1 John 4:20, 21 "If anyone makes the statement: 'I love God,' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment wehave from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.[/qs]
purpledawn writes:
What makes this a Christian law that we will be judged against before God?
9. Romans 13:13 "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities"
this is a law because "for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authroities that exist have been established by God."
If we refuse to obey the civil authorities, then we are not recognizing the authority God has allowed them to have.
However, obedience is conditional. You may recall Jesus words "Pay therefore Caesars things to Caesar, But Gods things to God" Matt 22:15-21
this balances just how much obedience we give to the civil authorities. If a civil authority required something of us that was contrary to Gods laws, then we must 'Obey God as ruler rather then men' Acts 5:27-29 When the religious leaders commanded that the Apostles stop preaching about Jesus, Paul said the above. So it shows that obedience is only to a point, God must be obeyed first.
purpledawn writes:
These are requirements for overseers and deacons in the early churches. What makes it a legal law that people are held account to before God?
notice how 'women' are included in that list....this shows that these requirements are not only for Overseers in the congregation, but for all christians in the congregation. they all were expected to abide by the laws and principles of the faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2009 4:19 PM purpledawn has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 24 of 392 (512289)
06-16-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
06-16-2009 2:43 AM


Re: Authority
quote:
The ultimate authority is God Almighty. Paul explained that Jesus is subject to that one at 1Cor11:3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God
But God has given Jesus great authority who in turn has delegated some of his authority to his 12 apostles. The authority he assigned to them was that of teaching people.
I understand that and the OT presents God as giving them the laws. What you're not showing me is the authority for the laws you are listing, although most have been from the Torah anyway, since you stated that the mosaic law has been removed. BTW, there was a lot more to the Jewish legal system of the time than the Mosaic Laws.
In your opening post you stated: The mosaic law was fortold to be removed and a new covenant, a new avenue of approach to God, was to be put in place.
I'm looking for the link from God to the person who has the authority to make the new laws (not principles or standards). If that person is Jesus, then we need the link to the person(s) that Jesus gave the authority to make new laws (not principles or standards) for the followers.
quote:
its not strange that many christian laws are similar to the mosaic, afterall the mosaic laws were Gods standards....they are still his standards. Jesus lived by those standards, loved those standards and taught those standards.
The difference between the two covenants was choice/free will. If you were born a jew, you had no choice but to follow the mosaic law. You didnt have to love it, you just had to obey it.
The new covenant was purely by choice. Only those who loved Christ would want to follow it.
Don't confuse laws and covenants. A covenant is a contract. The Mosaic laws are not a covenant. As part of the Mosaic covenant, they were required to follow the laws. They were the basis for the laws of a nation. At the time of Jesus, Israel was no longer an independent nation.
If, as you say, the Mosaic law is still God's standard (something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example) and Jesus taught that standard; then Christians should be following all those standards, not just the ones that happened to be mentioned by later writers. What about the Jewish laws that developed from the Mosaic Laws? Did Jesus also teach those standards? What evidence do you have of what Jesus did and didn't teach?
That's a big part of the problem. To be held accountable on judgment day to laws or teachings we don't have record of is not fair and balanced.
What clearly shows what we will be held accountable to on judgment day?
quote:
I certainly have experienced it. I was excommunicated myself for choosing a relationship outside of the church. I have since been reinstated and am happily a part of the congregation again.
So what law did you break and where is it listed in the Bible?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 2:43 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 5:19 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 25 of 392 (512295)
06-16-2009 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by purpledawn
06-15-2009 3:18 PM


Re: Matthew 28:18
purpledawn writes:
5. Matt 28:18 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations"
So what is the law? Jesus gave his disciples a job. This has nothing to do with us.
The disciples were supposed to teach people to obey everything Jesus had commanded them. Since the disciples didn't teach Paul, it is hard to say what the disciples taught the Jews or if they did their job.
The job that Jesus gave his diciples was to make more diciples by teaching and baptizing them.
All first century christians were evangelizers.
Peter said at 2:21In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.
Jesus was primarily a preacher. He taught people about Gods Kingdom. So a follower of Christ would also do this same work of evangelizing. The Apostles role was to teach all the disciples how to be preachers.
Who are these 70 individuals that Jesus sent out preaching?
quote:
Luke 10:10 After these things the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come. 2Then he began to say to them: "The harvest, indeed, is great, but the workers are few. Therefore beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest... 8Also, wherever YOU enter into a city and they receive YOU, eat the things set before YOU, 9and cure the sick ones in it, and go on telling them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to YOU.’
So you see, it has everything to do with christians...a christian must be an evangelizer. Paul was speaking to Timothy in this letter, Timothy was not an apostle but a young disciple.
quote:
2Timothy 4:5You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2009 3:18 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by purpledawn, posted 06-16-2009 11:36 AM Peg has replied
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 26 of 392 (512301)
06-16-2009 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Peg
06-16-2009 3:05 AM


Re: John 13:34
quote:
According to the christians, Love was a law, it was the greatest law because Love would prevent a person from breaking other laws. This is likely why the prophet Jerimiah says "the law will be written on their hearts" because those who loved God would choose to follow Christ.
No the Christians did not teach that love was a law. Agape your neighbor as yourself is referred to as a royal law by an unknown writer. This doesn't translate into love as a legal law for Christians today.
Your Romans 8:13 is not what you quoted. Apparently you meant Romans 13:9.
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Love your neighbor as yourself is a saying, not a law. Paul tells his audience that this saying sums up the commandments. Does this mean we don't need to know what the commandments actually are? If we are to be held accountable, then we need to know.
Paul personifies love or benevolence really. A benevolent spirit would not be inclined to harm others. That doesn't make it a legal law. If one follows the legal laws or commandments listed, it doesn't make any difference whether they were done willingly or begrudgingly. They were done. A benevolent spirit might make it easier, but which is required by God, the spirit or the action?
You agreed with the Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agapē is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another.
A better synonym for agape is benevolence (disposition to do good) or benevolent.
In Leviticus 19 the passage actually reads: " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
This very clearly does not mean to be benevolent towards all mankind as yourself. It encompasses a narrow circle of people. That's the text, not me.
quote:
1. Jesus had more then just his 12 apostles as followers. The fact that Jesus commissioned the apostles to teach and baptize shows that it extended to all mankind.
Your mythology is showing again. John 13:34 takes place at the last supper, at the most he is speaking to the group who could fit within the room besides the 12. The commission, which only shows up in the late gospel of John, is still limited to the group in the room with Jesus at the most. Remember Jesus also supposedly said: "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." The benevolence is still in treatment of each other. Again, that's the text, not me.
quote:
3. At John 15:13 Jesus said "No one has love [agpe] greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends. You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you."
the sort of love that Jesus showed was 'unconditional' That is the sort of love they were to show. Thats what agape means. Its a love based on principle as opposed to affection for instance. Jesus gave his life because he had love based on principle (agape)
From the scripture it is only unconditional for those who are a member of the club or believe in Christ. As I said, it is a limited group that this applies to. Aside from giving up his life, we don't know how Jesus "loved" his disciples.
Do you understand that my concern is that Christian "laws" are vague and inconsistent?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 3:05 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 5:42 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 27 of 392 (512313)
06-16-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
06-16-2009 4:07 AM


Re: Galatians 6:2
quote:
this verse in galatians shows that the 'law of the Christ' is closely aligned with love. 'Go on carrying the burdens of one another'
The way they treated each other would determine whether they were fulfilling the Law of Christ or not.
What burden means is irrelevant. This love/benevolence thing is a way of not being specific. Allowing churches to keep or throw out what they want.
The law of Christ is not a legal law with specifics or consequences. Stop confusing creative writing with a true legal law.
Law of sin, law of death, law of attraction, law of Christ, law of love, etc. These are no legal laws.
What you are calling a law of love is nothing more than a teaching that teaches people (or should be anyway) the frame of mind they need to be in to easily follow "the laws".
Like Paul said in Romans 13:9
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
They are summed up in this one rule (not a law). With a benevolent spirit one is more inclined to follow the laws (whatever they are).
Christianity is not a nation, it does not have its own legal system.
quote:
If one acts with love, they likely will share what they have. The first century christians practiced giving and charitable acts. They gave of their resources to those in physical need. Giving is just another aspect of Love.
Yes they were following the laws of Moses and Jewish law. This wasn't something new. It may not have been in practice as well as it should have been, but it wasn't new.
quote:
If one acts with love, they likely will share what they have.
But is it required?
This is the same rhetoric that says believers will be judged, but doesn't give a standard by which the believer will be judged.
My guess is all your posts are going to deal with the Love theme and not really address the issue.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 4:07 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 11:35 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 28 of 392 (512316)
06-16-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Peg
06-16-2009 4:24 AM


Re: Ephesians & Romans & Timothy
quote:
they certainly will be enforced by God and for good reason.
1 John 4:20, 21 "If anyone makes the statement: 'I love God,' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.

Why do these unknown later authors have the authority to dictate law?
A law is specific and clearly tells the person what is expected and the consequences of such actions.
All you're giving me are behavioral teachings.
quote:
However, obedience is conditional. You may recall Jesus words "Pay therefore Caesars things to Caesar, But Gods things to God" Matt 22:15-21
Then it isn't a law if you can choose when to obey with out consequence from God.
quote:
So it shows that obedience is only to a point, God must be obeyed first.
But we don't have any clear laws from God to obey first. The clear laws that we do have and that have become a part of our own legal system in the US are also in the Mosaic Laws. Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness. We know what the consequences are.
quote:
notice how 'women' are included in that list....this shows that these requirements are not only for Overseers in the congregation, but for all christians in the congregation. they all were expected to abide by the laws and principles of the faith.
Please keep on task. It is irrelevant whether women are included or not. How are these requirements, for running or being an officer in the church, laws that people are accountable for before God on judgment day?
You really haven't been able to clearly show what laws a Christian will clearly be accountable for on judgment day.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 4:24 AM Peg has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 29 of 392 (512317)
06-16-2009 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by purpledawn
06-16-2009 11:05 AM


St. Paul & HaMashiach - principles, standards and laws
Thanks for the exchange ...
Hope things are well.
Like Paul said in Romans 13:9
quote:
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
They are summed up in this one rule (not a law).
Three quick questions ...
What are the implications of classifying Paul's 'rule', 'Love your neighbor as yourself', as a principle or standard?
Also, what are the implications of classifying a commandment from the Anointed One as a law?
Should a commandment from the Anointed One be relegated as a standard or principle, or otherwise?
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by purpledawn, posted 06-16-2009 11:05 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 06-16-2009 12:21 PM Bailey has replied
 Message 43 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 6:10 AM Bailey has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 30 of 392 (512318)
06-16-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Peg
06-16-2009 7:59 AM


Re: Matthew 28:18
quote:
The job that Jesus gave his diciples was to make more diciples by teaching and baptizing them.
All first century christians were evangelizers.
Peter said at 2:21 In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.
Jesus was primarily a preacher. He taught people about Gods Kingdom. So a follower of Christ would also do this same work of evangelizing. The Apostles role was to teach all the disciples how to be preachers.
What is the law? A task and a law are two different things. Please stay on course. It is irrelevant who the 70 were.
You're giving authority to unknown writers. Why?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Peg, posted 06-16-2009 7:59 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 6:02 AM purpledawn has replied

  
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