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Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Christian Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Round and round we go. So Christian should be following all of the Mosaic Laws because they are God's standards. Christians aren't following or trying to follow all of the Mosaic Laws. quote:All laws of a society require some sort of consequence, otherwise it is useless as a law. If one lived in Israel, one had to follow the laws of the nation. Just as if one lives in the US, one has to follow the laws of the US. You are comparing national laws with personal behavior suggestions. quote:Why would anyone give a second chance for a grave offense? Not many countries would give second chances for grave sins. I don't think death penalties were uncommon in those eras, so what is the issue? They were laws for that time. Jesus didn't undo the national laws, he didn't have the power. quote:Again, you comparing apples and oranges. People were still liable under the national laws and would still suffer the consequences or death if the action warranted it. Jesus taught people how to behave within the national laws and religious laws of his time. Where did Jesus, not Paul, show that when someone intentionally commits murder, that they have a second chance?
quote:No they don't. What are the laws and the consequences? That is the point of this thread. Put them out there already. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
qurpledawn writes:
The Essene's were a sect of Judaism, as were the Pharasees and the Saducees...all of them remained a part of Judaism so they can rightly be called a sect. Stop and think before you write. The Way was a sect of Judaism, even according to Paul by the author of ActsActs 24:14-15 However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which thee call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. I suggest you research the history of Christianity. But Christianity was not considered a sect by the Jewish religious leaders. In fact, Paul was on trial in that scripture you quote for teaching something 'contrary' to Judaism. Look at the context of the passage. Paul is giving a defense at one of his trials. Of what was he being accused? Of being a sect or of teaching something that contradicted the Jewish laws?
quote: If Paul remained a part of Judaism, why did he write that all meats are acceptable for eating, and gentiles are also acceptable to God?
purpledawn writes: Wrong. The Jewish followers of Jesus did not leave Judaism. James, the brother of Jesus or James the Just, was allowed into the Holy of Holies. In describing James' ascetic lifestyle, Jerome, De Viris Illustribus, quotes Hegesippus' account of James from the fifth book of Hegesippus' lost Commentaries: this is a very dubious piece of information. Jerome's writings were of the late 3rd century and Hegesippus (???) who knows! 'This one was holy from his mother's womb.' This wasnt written by the apostles or any inspired writer. Mary had only one 'holy' child and that was Jesus. There is a reason why not all christian writings made it into the canon.
purpledawn writes: Again you show your ignorance of reality. Do some research. The Oral Torah also came from God to Moses. You should appreciate that. The Talmud is not anymore made up than any other set of laws. I dont mean to contradict you, but the Law of Moses was complete long before the Talmud was written down. Moses was told to WRITE down all the laws God gave him, which he did. The 'ORAL' law which was promoted by the sect of the Pharasees during the first centuryCE, was strongly opposed by the Sadducees and other Jews. It only became accepted after the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70CE.
purpledawn writes: Already did that in Message 89 that you're responding to. Do you look at the links provided! Here's a link to the Babylonian Talmud, knock yourself out. i hope you are kidding. You claim that the christians followed the 'Oral law' I asked for evidence of them following the oral law and give me the babylonian talmud!
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: Christians aren't following or trying to follow all of the Mosaic Laws. exactly...they know what Jesus and the apostles taught and therefore know they are not required to follow the mosaic law. anyway, this has been a lovely whirlwind discussion and I think its been done to death as i'm sure you'd agree.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
im sorry, i missed this one so this will be my lucky last.
purpledawn writes: No I've been asking you to provide a list of Christian Laws which should encompass what God requires. Unfortunately you've already shown that Christian Laws don't really exist because there are no consequences for not following them. So no laws, just principles or standards of behavior. I showed you many laws but you dont seem able to grasp them as laws in the broad sense that the greek word carries. You dont believe there are consequences because cannot see that the laws are designed to bring one into an approved standing before God. When you loose that approved standing, you are no longer apart of the christian congregation and loose your relationship with God...thats tough love.
purpledawn writes: Personally, I don't think you have any idea what God requires. If you think you do, then go ahead in this thread, there is plenty of room and it falls under the heading as much as anything else you've thrown out, unless of course this is more of your own mythology. well your probably rightI'll have to keep working at it I guess.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange Peg.
Hope things are well with you. Peg writes: weary writes:
if you look closely at the words Jesus gave namely, "...make disciples of people of all the nations, teaching them to observe all the things that I commanded YOU..." Disciples are not preachers. Teach them to observe. Nice. lol - if you don't mind, may I call you Surely? Perhaps one may wonder how come it seems so few laying claim to the magical properties of innocent blood take time to observe the Torah (Law), the Nevi'im (Prophets) and the Tehellim (Psalms) in their fullness? At least, considering, those are the items a disciple of HaMashiach is admonished to observe. The doctrine of the Prophets has challenged many traditions through our halls of time. Perhaps we will all have a chance to explain how one may come to assume that the final RCC testament texts, authentic as some may be, were equivalent, and 'indeed' superceded in wisdom, to the Law and the Prophets. Surley, one can hope ...
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: Now if the apostles had to teach people all that Christ taught them, this must surely include the work of preaching and teaching. The modern term 'preaching' appears ill equiped to denote the duties assigned to an anointed disciple of HaMashiach. As can be easily confirmed, wannabe disciples must first request, and rather matter of factly demand, that no practitioners of the tradition may refer to an anointed disciple as a Pastor or Rabbi. Seems though, as of yet, many ego's are far too chilled to remove that outer garment, and so, all of the jesters don their King's robe to stay warm. No worries though ... they are bound, though perhaps undetermined, to warm up sooner or later.
Jesus himself sent out many disciples preaching, so why do you say that disciples were not to be preachers??? lol - He sent them preaching? Perhaps, more to the point, HaMashiach sent them beseeching. It seems as though their primary charge was to, in the face of death and ridicule, encourage and indoctrinate - free of charge - those who had come to believe, at times through (documented) forgery, others through bitterness and resentment and still others by way of naivety, that blood revenge was acceptable to the Father. They were certainly busy beavers. After all, magical blood revenge techniques were, perhaps, some of the most prevalent forms of atonement provided for within the landscapes of indigenous earthly traditions, as well as the cause of much destruction. It appears that many cultures indeed paid heed to the serpent whispers from below, encouraging them to abuse innocent Life. The economical implications and incentives to keep up this charade are, though seemingly unfortunate, still quite a magnificent piece of machinery nonetheless. More to the point, the dynamics of supply and demand do not lend favor to a remission of sin through teshuva and emunah, and perhaps a lil' water baptism, which were effectual well before the Father's slave was murdered. In the end of the matter, anointed disciples do not appear to have 'preached' or promoted magical blood revenge, as chances are, they did not want to take food from the mouths of biblical babes ... After all, they were supposed to feed the hungry ... not starve and rob 'em. One Love Edited by Bailey, : sp.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4396 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Hope all is well ...
honesty writes: I'll have to keep working at it I guess. ... that makes all of us. btw, this is the most inspiring post I've read all week. Thank you. One Love Edited by Bailey, : grammar
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Exactly and he said he wasn't, so what is your point? The Way was a sect of Judaism until after the destruction of the Temple. As I said, research your Christian history if you don't believe Paul. quote:Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. This thread isn't about explaining Paul. Read Paul's authentic letters as a whole and not as one-liners. quote:Amazing that you accept Jewish tradition that Moses wrote the first five books, but you don't accept the Jewish tradition that says the Oral Torah was given to Moses by God at the same time. The Oral Torah is supposedly the explanation of the Written Torah. The Oral Torah was not to be written down. The Jews decided to write it down before the info got lost. If all the people who carried the info got killed, the information would be gone. The Talmud contains that information and more. So it was wise to write it down. Don't you understand how legal systems work? Now reality, according to a book by Paul Johnson, a Christian, entitled "A History of the Jews" the Oral Torah had its beginning around the end of the 2nd century bce. Whatever internal battles waged within the Jewish religion, the Oral Torah was there.
quote:And I provided links in Message 89. Edited by purpledawn, : Msg # "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Purpledawn writes:
No I've been asking you to provide a list of Christian Laws which should encompass what God requires. Unfortunately you've already shown that Christian Laws don't really exist because there are no consequences for not following them. So no laws, just principles or standards of behavior. There are consequences for not being conformed to the image of Christ. The consequences are very wide in scope. They extend from being "hurt by the second death" to losing a reward. The consequences cover a wide range of possibities of temporary discipline, not only in this age but also in the age after the second coming of Christ. Otherwise, for example, the Apostle Paul would not speak to the Corinthian church about suffering loss though being saved:
"If anyone's work which he has built upon [the foundation] remains, he will receive a reward; If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15) " SAVED .... yet so as through FIRE." No consequences to Christians to not living by Him and being made mature ? There are many passages which prove otherwise is taught. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I didn't ask for a broad Greek sense. I asked for laws and gave a very specific meaning. What you presented does not fit into that form except for the Mosaic/Jewish Laws. quote:You said there weren't any consequences in Message 84. Peg writes: It could be the way im explaining it or perhaps you just dont get it. The mosaic law embodied Gods standards but more then that it prescribed punishment for failing to live by those standards. The purpose of it was to show mankind its need for a savior. When that savior came, the purpose of the mosaic law was realized hence the new arrangement for approach to God could be thru that savior. This didnt mean that Gods standard had changed, it just meant that no longer did the punishments of the mosaic law have to be administered to wrongdoers. For the jews to get forgiveness, they needed to offer a blood sacrifice...if they were caught committing a grave sin, then they could be killed for their wrongdoing.Whereas the christian church had the Savior Jesus Christ as an approach to God and as the basis for forgiveness of their sins. However, the christians still had to abide by all that Jesus taught...it did not make them a law unto themselves. They still needed to try to live by Gods standards. The purpose you presented for the Mosaic laws is not from Jesus. The purpose of the Mosaic/Jewish Laws are the same purpose as any other legal system for a nation, to maintain order within a society. No more, no less. The Jews could receive forgiveness without sacrifices. You've been shown this before. Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Edited by purpledawn, : Word Change Edited by purpledawn, : Msg # "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
The law of the Christ is repeatedly associated with freedom. The apostles referred to it as "the law of a free people" and "the perfect law that belongs to freedom." (John 8:31, 32 & James 1:25, 2:12) Peg, I am inclined to think James meant nothing other than the law of Moses in James 1:25, 2:12 . The new testament church went through a transition from the old judaism law keeping into understanding of living by the grace of Christ. Of all the NT writers James represents the most primitive in this transition. He boasted to Paul about how many thousands in the church in Jerusalem were keepers of the law. He persuaded Paul to conduct himself as an old testament law keeper. However God did not seem to honor it. It all blew up in Paul's face. He went to prison and there wrote some of his clearest epistles on the new testment grace. I think James had one foot still in the old covenant Mosiac law keeping. Still in the development of the church he was an important transitional figure. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So list the laws and the consequences. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
So list the laws and the consequences. I did not say that there were laws to list. I did say that there were consequences to not obeying and being conformed to the image of Christ. There are some charges or commands in the New Testament. I am saying that we should not think of them as the 11th, 12th, 13th, ... Nth Commandments meant to be added on to the Ten Commandments. I already provided a strong verse on the consequence of being "saved yet so as through fire" from First Corinthians. Now I will provide another strong one uttered FOUR times in the Gospels:
"And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his soul-life shall lose it, and he who loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." (Matt. 10:38,39) "Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follw Me. For whoeer wants to save his soul-life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it. For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but forfiets his soul-life? .... For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will repay each man according to his doings." (Matt. 16:24-27). See also Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24; 17:33; John 12:25) These passages are spoken to His disciples. Jesus comes to transform the mind, emotion, and will of His disciple. He comes to transform the soul. If the disciples resist this transformation preserving the soul they will one day lose it. Losing the soul here does not mean losing eternal salvation. But it does mean suffering the loss of the soul's enjoyment. That enjoyment is mainly in the kingdom immediately following Christ's return: "For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will repay each man according to his doings." The Son of Man will return and repay the disciples according to their works. These works are the works allowing Christ to transform their soul into the image of Christ. They are to take up thier cross and follow Him rather than follow themselves. They are to deny themselves and instead enjoy the living Christ. If they do they will lose their soul-life in this age but they will be transformed and enjoy thier soul in the kingdom age at Christ's return. That will be their reward for allowing Christ to sanctify them. If they postpone this sanctification and transformation, there is the danger that when Jesus returns they will lose the delight of thier soul and suffer loss as a consquence. Not allowing Christ to conform the disciples to His image can have a temporary negative consequence. If this is too esoteric I can give you passages which spell it out in no uncertain terms. Like Luke 12:47.
"And the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his his will, will receive many lashes; But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (Luke 12:46-48) Here you can plainly see degrees of punishment upon His servants based on how much they should have known better. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
quote: But not one jot, not one tittle of the law shall be changed till all be fulfilled. Has all been fulfilled? One of the things that was the sign of everything being fulfilled is the end of the world. Has the world ended? If not, then you are still bound by Mosaic law as commanded by Jesus. Why do you think Paul can override Jesus? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3483 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Exactly! One must know the master's will. Consequences are given accordingly. So if one does not want stripes, one needs to know what the master's will is.
A fair and just master makes sure his slave clearly understands his will. So list the Master's will and what is deserving of stripes. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Taz Member (Idle past 3317 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 13:5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
Linky quote: Um, shouldn't you christians put this dude to death? Here are a list of other failed prophecies by this very honored christian leader.
Linky quote: Added by edit. Here is something else interesting.
quote: Edited by Taz, : No reason given. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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