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Author Topic:   How Old is the Earth ?
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 145 (4665)
02-15-2002 10:20 PM


Has anyone entertained the idea that if God created Adam as an adult why couldnt he create the earth as a million years old?

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by TrueCreation, posted 02-15-2002 11:39 PM zimzam has not replied
 Message 16 by joz, posted 02-15-2002 11:49 PM zimzam has replied
 Message 18 by RetroCrono, posted 02-16-2002 2:48 AM zimzam has not replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 145 (4708)
02-16-2002 1:08 PM


Lets look at it this way. We measure time by the rising and setting of the sun, which is one calendar day (24 hours). If we were with God during the creation events and then with Adam in the garden a week later we would definitely say that the earth was 11 days old and Adam was 7 days old. If at that time we placed Adam into a lab and conducted scientific tests to determine his age we would conclude he was perhaps in his mid 20's (9125 days old). The same could be said of all the plants, birds and animals. Why couldn’t the same be said of the universe and earth?
God didn't create the earth in its infancy but rather in its maturity. Today when we attempt to measure the age of the earth we come to the conclusion that it is millions of years old. The universe seems to be expanding and using mathematical equations we can determine its speed of expansion etc and come to a logical and accurate conclusion regarding its age. This does not mean that the earth is not 6,000 calendar days old.
Were the trees created as mere saplings? Did God stand by and wait for them to grow into tall mature trees? Did God tell Adam "Hold on, the garden isn’t ready yet? When Christ turned the water into wine did he say to the wedding guests "Hold on, you need to wait awhile the grapes haven’t quite fermented yet."
My point is that there is no intent to deceive on Gods part. When you have the power of creation you can do anything you want. The earth may have only taken a day to create but it was created as mature and old in years.

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by joz, posted 02-16-2002 7:44 PM zimzam has replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 145 (4714)
02-16-2002 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by joz
02-15-2002 11:49 PM


In no way does it make God a deceiver. Please read message 28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by joz, posted 02-15-2002 11:49 PM joz has not replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 145 (4833)
02-17-2002 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by joz
02-16-2002 7:44 PM


You still really haven’t explained why this would be deceiving on Gods part. God created the heavens and the earth not only for His glory but also for a home for man. If God chose to create a mature earth to sustain life for man why is this deceiving? If he decided to create the universe as expanding or non-expanding that is His choosing and for reasons we may not understand. Perhaps an expanding universe is necessary is sustain our solar systems etc. There is also scripture to suggest that when man fell (sin) all of creation was also directly affected. Maybe the universe was created as non-expanding (perfect perpetual energy?) then when sin entered the world the universe immediately began to expand and lose energy. Could this of been the point of where the universe is now governed by mathematics and physics rather than God himself. I don’t know these to be facts but are interesting theories at least to me.
Rom 8:19-21
19
The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
20
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joz, posted 02-16-2002 7:44 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Mister Pamboli, posted 02-17-2002 3:19 PM zimzam has replied
 Message 42 by joz, posted 02-17-2002 3:21 PM zimzam has replied
 Message 44 by LudvanB, posted 02-17-2002 11:57 PM zimzam has replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 145 (4950)
02-18-2002 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Mister Pamboli
02-17-2002 3:19 PM


[QUOTE] Let's take an analogy. Select Help - About from your Internet Explorer menu (if that's what your using) or from some other software. You will find a copyright notice "1995-2002 Microsoft Corp." If this copyright notice said "1942-2002 Microsoft Corp" that would be a deception, because it is untrue.
zim: We can certainly know that Microsoft’s copyright date beginning in 1995 is when it was released to the public for use. If we found that the software required 53 years of research and development there can be an argument that the time stamp on the software should start in 1942. We, as users, have chosen to argue/debate this dating on the software. At no time does this make Microsoft liars and deceivers.
They built this software for our use so we can use it to browse the Internet. If half the users choose to believe the date should be 1942 doesn’t change the fact that Microsoft created the software. Of course I believe the same can be true of God's creation of the earth.
The deception in God's creation would not be in creating a fully developed earth, but in creating an earth with untrue evidence of a development which never happened.
zim: Again I will go back to the power to create. You have the miraculous power to create things out of nothing and you want to create an automobile. You can either create the automobile in a thousand parts needing assembly or you can create it as a completely assembled running car that others can use immediately. You choose to create the fully functioning automobile (no assembly required). Now a friend comes over to drive your car 10 minutes later. After driving the car he quickly realizes that this it is essentially perfect.
He wants to inspect the car and test it in everyway. The car has a beautiful paintjob and the engine is finely tuned to perfection. He comes to the conclusion that this took years to develop and assemble. No way is this only 10 minutes old. Without the power of creation this scenario wouldn’t be possible. If your friend considers such a power possible on what grounds could he question the cars age? If you are seriously considering that creation is possible how can you question what is created? On the other hand if creation in your view is absurd and completely impossible then I understand your conclusions, but that doesn’t make them correct.
[/B][/QUOTE]

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zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 145 (4952)
02-18-2002 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by joz
02-17-2002 3:21 PM


Please read message 50. Having said all of this I believe that the earth and universe were created 6,000 years ago and not 4.5 billion years ago. The apparent age that we place on that creation is a moot point. If creation is not possible and there is no God then let the evidence speak for itself. But, if we are actually to consider the miraculous power of creation to be possible then we cannot argue the evidence without it. To say that God can create whatever he chooses but not a mature earth is foolishness. I would rather entertain arguments that God does not exist.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joz:
You must remember that not only is the apparent age due to distant starlight, expanding universe, radiometric isotope decay, stellar generations etc but also the fossil record which if created to give an aged look to the universe would be an act of direct deception... [/B][/QUOTE]
Does the fossil record provide proof of life on earth greater than 6,000 years old? What proofs, not theories, can you show me to think otherwise? Perhaps it is life on earth where we should focus our debate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by joz, posted 02-17-2002 3:21 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by joz, posted 02-18-2002 4:08 PM zimzam has replied
 Message 53 by Quetzal, posted 02-18-2002 4:11 PM zimzam has not replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 145 (5059)
02-19-2002 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Quetzal
02-19-2002 1:56 AM


In response I have several things to say.
1. In part I joined this discussion to educate myself about these so called proofs regarding the earth being more than or less than 6-10,000 years old. What I do know is only what I have read and what others have taught me. Up to this point it seems there have always been 2 sides to everything. An evolutionist claims that evidence X proves his side while a creationist can take the same evidence X and say it proves creation. I just got done reading 25 posts between TC and the rest of you arguing geological proofs without anyone giving a single one. I will admit that is frustrating.
2. Reference apparent age of the earth I will have to go back to my post in message 50 regarding the created automobile analogy. You as the creator represent God, the car represents the earth and your friend represents mankind. Lets agree that you had created the car for your friend. You knew he was coming over in 10 minutes and you also knew he would want to drive the car when he arrived. Because of this you created the car as an assembled and fully functioning automobile. Your friend complains that the car has got to be older than 10 minutes because everything he knows tells him that the metal, plastic, wiring and paint job on the car takes longer than 10 minutes to prepare and finish. He now questions your intentions and your response is:
"Why are you struggling with and questioning this cars apparent age? Would you rather I created the car unassembled then had you wait around for 10 months while I assemble and give it a tune up so you can drive it? I did it this way so you can enjoy the car now. When did I ever tell you how old the car is? When did I ever tell you how I created the car? The important facts are that I created the car, I created it 10 minutes ago, and I created it for you to use."
3. Maybe my point is that I feel that arguing the age of the earth is indeed a moot point. How will this change anything? The focus shouldnt be on the age of the earth but perhaps on the time life has been on the earth.
4. Being a creationist/christian/fundamentalist there are certain truths I base my beliefs on. These truths come from The Bible, science, and common sense. It is hard for me to argue one without the others. Most of you seem more educated in the science department than I and I will kindly ask you to explain these geological proofs. I would also be very happy to answer any questions regarding the Bibles vaildity, accuracy and message.
5. I need to know the following:
Do you consider God, creation, and supernatural events as a possibility?
If you dont why?
If you do what evidences are you willing to accept?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Quetzal, posted 02-19-2002 1:56 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by mark24, posted 02-19-2002 5:42 AM zimzam has replied
 Message 84 by Pete, posted 02-19-2002 7:09 AM zimzam has replied
 Message 85 by Quetzal, posted 02-19-2002 8:13 AM zimzam has replied
 Message 87 by mark24, posted 02-19-2002 10:36 AM zimzam has replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 145 (5060)
02-19-2002 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by LudvanB
02-17-2002 11:57 PM


With the help of God I can try to answer all of your questions about God but I can do it only from what the Bible tells us. Are you seriously seeking the answers and will you allow me to back my faith in God up using the message He gave us in the Scriptures?
I apologize for my answers previously if they were meant to suggest that God is self centered and a jerk. There is so much more to him that you need to know. Everything he has done is to show his love for us.

This message is a reply to:
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zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 145 (5061)
02-19-2002 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by joz
02-18-2002 4:08 PM


Let me ask you this. When did God ever tell us how old the earth is? He only tells us that he created it in 6 days and that he created it for us. We have created this debate over its age thus completely missing the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by joz, posted 02-18-2002 4:08 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by joz, posted 02-19-2002 9:45 AM zimzam has replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 145 (5128)
02-20-2002 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by mark24
02-19-2002 5:42 AM


I do think it is somewhat interesting that we can look at the same thing and come up with the exact opposite conclusions. I look at the universe, earth, animals, and man and see amazing designs that can not be explained without an intelligence behind them. If we went to the moon and dug up a simple machine like a bicycle all of mankind would immediately come to the conclusion that intelligent life created it and then left it there. Why do you and others look at everything beautiful and wonderous in the universe and immediately refute any intelligent design?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by mark24, posted 02-19-2002 5:42 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by mark24, posted 02-20-2002 4:23 AM zimzam has replied
 Message 101 by Quetzal, posted 02-20-2002 6:52 AM zimzam has not replied
 Message 102 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 7:40 AM zimzam has not replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 145 (5129)
02-20-2002 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Pete
02-19-2002 7:09 AM


Peter I am sorry that you havent been able to find any Christians that can support the bible with facts other than saying because thats how their parents raised them. I am very skeptical in nature and take the Bible and its truths very seriously and have researched them as much as I can up to this point. Here are some areas where I have based my opinion on the Bible:
1. Its uniqueness
2. How it was prepared
3. Its reliability within a historical aspect
4. Archeological confirmation
5. Prophecy fulfilled in History
6. the power of Christs message
7. advanced scientific knowledge
8. how it has changed my life

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Pete, posted 02-19-2002 7:09 AM Pete has not replied

Replies to this message:
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zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 145 (5130)
02-20-2002 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Quetzal
02-19-2002 8:13 AM


I will read your suggested articles on the age of the earth and then pose any questions I have afterwards.
My point with the automobile analogy is not whether the earth is 4 billion or 6,000 years old but that it was created 6,000 years ago. If it was created then it is a manufactured piece of matter. Its apparent age to me at least is not important. What I will concede to you as very important is what evidence proves that life has been here on earth more than 6,000 years. Any decent microbiologist (secular or christian) now admits that evolution gives us no answers as to the creation of life. The evidence is in the details which happen to be infinitely more complex the further we break down its molecular level.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Quetzal, posted 02-19-2002 8:13 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 5:51 AM zimzam has not replied
 Message 100 by Quetzal, posted 02-20-2002 6:40 AM zimzam has not replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 145 (5131)
02-20-2002 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by joz
02-19-2002 9:45 AM


Again the Bible states that after man fell (sinned against God)God did curse the earth and that man will now eventually die and return to the dust from which he came. There is also Biblical evidence stating that all of creation was then spun into eventual decay. If we take this to be true then it also is suggesting that the earth and man were originally created not to die and not to decay. This then would suggest that the physical laws that govern them were also changed.
Now if God didnt exist and there was nothing greater than ourselves this would be absurd and sound like foolishness even to me. But since I have chosen to believe in a miraculous God with infinite wisdom and power who has created everything I know these other beliefs are not a stretch. If you will give me the benefit of the doubt and understand this you can at least understand my views on these issues. I certainly understand your views because they are coming from someone that doesnt believe in God and I would agree with all of your conclusions if I also didnt believe in God. I choose to have faith in God but it is also not a blind faith.
I feel that there is plenty of proof in science to support my faith and I have yet to find any proof that does not support it. Again I think this is understandable since I have placed my faith in a supernatural being capable of things we as man can never explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by joz, posted 02-19-2002 9:45 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Peter, posted 02-20-2002 5:37 AM zimzam has not replied
 Message 99 by LudvanB, posted 02-20-2002 6:14 AM zimzam has not replied
 Message 103 by joz, posted 02-20-2002 9:09 AM zimzam has not replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 145 (5132)
02-20-2002 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by mark24
02-19-2002 10:36 AM


Give me some time to research this and I will at least come up with some questions for you involving radiometric whatever
In the meantime I am running out of sleep hours trying to answer everyones replies to my posts. My wife is about to ring my neck
How much time do the rest of you put into these discussions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by mark24, posted 02-19-2002 10:36 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by mark24, posted 02-20-2002 4:46 AM zimzam has replied

  
zimzam
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 145 (5185)
02-20-2002 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by mark24
02-20-2002 4:46 AM


Ok I will do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by mark24, posted 02-20-2002 4:46 AM mark24 has not replied

  
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