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Author Topic:   Not reading God's Word right is just wrong. No talking snakes!
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 121 of 157 (512954)
06-22-2009 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Brian
06-22-2009 4:39 PM


A single search and the first on the list yielded this:
At the end of the 18th century AD bas-reliefs with pictographs were discovered by travelers passing near Ivriz, on the plateau of Asia Minor. These same peculiar signs were seen in the area of Jerablus-Carchemish on the bank of the Euphrates, and later on the site of ancient Babylon and in other places. Hittite Pictographic WritingThey are completely different from hieroglyphics. It was then not known which people had left them.
However, mention of Kheta in the texts accompanying the bas-reliefs of the battle of Kadesh, in the poem celebrating this battle, and in the Egyptian text of the peace treaty stimulated conjecture about the identity of the rivals of Ramses II in the struggle for dominion over their world. Who were the `HtBreasted, `Records', V. III, Sec. 306', Kheta? [4] An Egyptian hieroglyphic word which according to Budge means `a rectangular plot of land', while the verb form `khetta' means `to wander about the earth'.
In the 1870's a solution was offered and accepted. Kheta were the Hittites, occasionally mentioned in the Scriptures. It was the phonetic similarity of the names that prompted this identification.
William Wright, a missionary in Damascus, came to this conclusion and also decided that the mysteries signs are Hittite writings.[5] Since almost nothing was known of Hittite history, it was like resurrecting an empire from oblivion, and it was called `a discovery of a forgotten empire.' These were sensational matters in the 1880's.
Yes, no scholar - today - would doubt the Hittites (as we know them) or Hatti or Kheta (as others referred to them).
Again, it is debated whether the Bible refers to these people, and I admitted that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 06-22-2009 4:39 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2009 6:17 PM greentwiga has replied
 Message 140 by Brian, posted 06-24-2009 7:43 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 122 of 157 (512957)
06-22-2009 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by greentwiga
06-22-2009 6:01 PM


Please provide sources. It is an accepted practice to provide your sources. I would like to read the original source material itself.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by greentwiga, posted 06-22-2009 6:01 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by greentwiga, posted 06-22-2009 10:09 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 123 of 157 (512961)
06-22-2009 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by greentwiga
06-22-2009 3:59 PM


Jaywill - What you say is solid. For a Christian, there is no need to look to other writings. The Bible is clear that the Garden teaches us to hold Marriage as a sacred covenant.
That is not the only matter I see of importance there. It is one.
More basic is that God created man in the image of God and commited him to have dominion over the Creation of God. These two words are very important when we talk about the meaning of human life -
image ... dominion
God created man to express God and to represent God and to be a deputy authority of God.
The forming of the woman from the man and then bringing her back to the man for marriage is very very significant. This is a window into the eternal purpose of God. The Bible ends with a marriage of God and His redeemed people to be one romantic couple for eternity.
Adam and his wife are a little window into Christ and the church.
Enter a marvelous book The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee:
This book really changed my life -
Titles A-Z | LSM Online Publications
It is also clear that sin entered the world through Adam, and that we need a second Adam,
That is the last Adam, the second man.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
The last Adam Jesus Christ transfigured Himself into a form in which He can, after forgiving our sins, may enter into the very kernel of our spiritual being.
one who will take away/pay for the sin. These are matters of theology/belief.
And they are matters of Reality, Truth, and true Truth. Belief can be belief about what is real.
Many of these people do not believe and are questioning the accuracy of what the Bible says. When we take the Hebrew word, serpent, and translate it snake, we get a problem.
I wouldn't argue over this. Snake may not be the best English equivalent. I'll give you that.
I think it is a very minor point. To be able to read it in Hebrew could be very helpful indeed. I wish I could.
However, King Saul's Hebrew was up to par. It didn't help him to stop murdering God's priests of hunting David's life for total envy.
Korah and company probably had good Hebrew speaking skills. It didn't stop him from instigating the murmerers from stoning Moses and returning to Egypt.
So we still need the Holy Spirit.
Have to go now. Sorry. I'll read the rest latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by greentwiga, posted 06-22-2009 3:59 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by greentwiga, posted 06-22-2009 10:20 PM jaywill has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 124 of 157 (512968)
06-22-2009 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Theodoric
06-22-2009 6:17 PM


A Hittite source
Forbidden
Sorry.

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 Message 122 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2009 6:17 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 125 of 157 (512969)
06-22-2009 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jaywill
06-22-2009 7:13 PM


The Hebrew word Nachash means to hiss. It is used of sorcerers for their tendency to hiss or mutter. Nachash, a word that only differs from the first in the vowel points (added 900 AD and not considered inspired) means serpent. Saraph, for fiery or poisonous, means a snake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jaywill, posted 06-22-2009 7:13 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jaywill, posted 06-23-2009 12:14 PM greentwiga has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 126 of 157 (512980)
06-23-2009 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by greentwiga
06-22-2009 3:59 PM


quote:
Many of these people do not believe and are questioning the accuracy of what the Bible says.
And some are questioning the accuracy of what religion claims the writers of the Bible say.
quote:
The Bible is clear that the Garden teaches us to hold Marriage as a sacred covenant.
No it doesn't.
quote:
It is also clear that sin entered the world through Adam, and that we need a second Adam, one who will take away/pay for the sin.
That's Paul speaking, not God. There was nothing to pay for. Don't confuse preaching with reality.
quote:
A careful analysis of the Biblical passage on the Garden will not convince anyone that God exists. It just shows that it is quite possible that the story of the Garden was historically accurate. If a person wants to reject the Bible, it should not be done because of wrong interpretations that also happen to be scientifically invalid.
Convincing someone of God's existence or presenting a real event was not the purpose of the Garden story. Rejection of "the Bible" is more a rejection of the erroneous claims attributed to the writers of the Bible. IOW, dogmatic interpretations that are not truly based on what the writers of the Bible actually wrote for their audiences.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by greentwiga, posted 06-22-2009 3:59 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 10:46 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 127 of 157 (512988)
06-23-2009 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by purpledawn
06-23-2009 7:07 AM


Yes, some question what people say that the writers of the Bible were saying. When I claim that the Garden was set at the time and location of the domestication of wheat, and was aimed at worshipers of the Mother Goddess, I am going against traditional interpretations. The whole Bible presents events as being in a historical setting, whether Abraham, Moses, David, or Jesus. Theological teaching is presented in that setting.
Gen 2:24 does teach us that one point of the story is Marriage. Other places amplify on on it saying this means it is a covenant before God.
Paul's writing is considered part of the Bible. If I wanted to say Torah or the Prophets, I would have stated that.
I basically agree with your last statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by purpledawn, posted 06-23-2009 7:07 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2009 1:26 PM greentwiga has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 128 of 157 (512991)
06-23-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by greentwiga
06-22-2009 10:20 PM


The Hebrew word Nachash means to hiss. It is used of sorcerers for their tendency to hiss or mutter. Nachash, a word that only differs from the first in the vowel points (added 900 AD and not considered inspired) means serpent. Saraph, for fiery or poisonous, means a snake.
I don't insist on calling the creature snake.
What is important to me is that way before 900 AD we have this inspired word of the New Testament informing us that Satan the Devil was behind the serpent in Genesis 3.
"And the great dragon was cast down, THE ANCIENT SERPENT; he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth ... and his angels were cast down with him." (Revelation 12:9 My emphasis)
Pretty clear isn't it ?
The ancient serpent was the Devil and Satan who deceives the whole inhabited earth. Now if a actual animal I would take it to mean that the evil spirit utilized the beast above all the others to speak and carry out his deception of Eve.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by greentwiga, posted 06-22-2009 10:20 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 12:53 PM jaywill has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 129 of 157 (512993)
06-23-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jaywill
06-23-2009 12:14 PM


This is why I am insisting that the Bible is not talking about a talking snake. It is talking about the Ancient Serpent, Satan. Satan uses various religions and in this case it seems that he is using the Worship of the mother Goddess. The Oracle at Delphi has the clearest picture of women priestesses seeking possession by Python, the Serpent to get a message. Mesopotamian writing has much to say about women priestesses of a mother Goddess being required to be temple prostitutes, what the Greeks called the Heirodule (the sacred wife.) This is what the Bible calls wickedness, and shows us why God promoted marriage in Gen 2:24. The word is exactly the same Hebrew word as the one translated Evil (tree of good and evil.) The Golden Bough discusses the mother Goddess worship, the dressing in vegetable matter (like fig leaves) and the sacrificing of Humans, especially in times before written history. This does not change what you are saying in any way, it just enriches understanding the passage. It also limits interpretations of passages so we avoid saying that the Bible was talking about talking snakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jaywill, posted 06-23-2009 12:14 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jaywill, posted 06-23-2009 1:09 PM greentwiga has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 130 of 157 (512994)
06-23-2009 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by greentwiga
06-23-2009 12:53 PM


This is why I am insisting that the Bible is not talking about a talking snake.
I am listening. But look carefully how it READS. A creature was speaking. I think Satan was using the creature.
It is talking about the Ancient Serpent, Satan. Satan uses various religions and in this case it seems that he is using the Worship of the mother Goddess.
Are you talking Genesis or Revelation?
The Oracle at Delphi has the clearest picture of women priestesses seeking possession by Python, the Serpent to get a message.
That may be true. But why do you assume that that fact if it be so, enflences the prophetic writing of the book of Genesis?
That there was plenty of demonology in the ancient world is not disputed. Why do you find it necessary that that fact has to be the driving enfluence behind Moses in his writing of Genesis? (I think Moses wrote Genesis).
Mesopotamian writing has much to say about women priestesses of a mother Goddess being required to be temple prostitutes, what the Greeks called the Heirodule (the sacred wife.) This is what the Bible calls wickedness, and shows us why God promoted marriage in Gen 2:24. The word is exactly the same Hebrew word as the one translated Evil (tree of good and evil.) The Golden Bough discusses the mother Goddess worship, the dressing in vegetable matter (like fig leaves) and the sacrificing of Humans, especially in times before written history. This does not change what you are saying in any way, it just enriches understanding the passage. It also limits interpretations of passages so we avoid saying that the Bible was talking about talking snakes.
So you do not think a conversation between the woman and the serpent actually took place ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 12:53 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 6:30 PM jaywill has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 131 of 157 (512995)
06-23-2009 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by greentwiga
06-23-2009 10:46 AM


quote:
When I claim that the Garden was set at the time and location of the domestication of wheat, and was aimed at worshipers of the Mother Goddess, I am going against traditional interpretations.
As I've said before your interpretation is far enough from the text that you're really arguing that Genesis 2 is a distorted and mythicised account. I've got no complaint about that, but you should be open about it.
And for all your references to Paul, you are still ignoring his explicit description of Adam as the first man in 1 Corinthians 15:45, even after I pointed it out to you in Message 104. Missing it is one thing, ignoring it after it has been pointed out is quite another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 10:46 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 6:19 PM PaulK has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 132 of 157 (513000)
06-23-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by PaulK
06-23-2009 1:26 PM


Sorry, I was out of town for a week. You made a good point. I had read "the first Adam .... The last Adam" As you pointed out, it says, "the first man (anthropos), Adam." I was wrong at that point. The idea that there were other men before Adam was speculation, and the idea conflicts with the verse above. I still stand by my statement that you quoted. That part sticks quite closely to the texts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2009 1:26 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2009 1:24 AM greentwiga has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 133 of 157 (513002)
06-23-2009 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by jaywill
06-23-2009 1:09 PM


The woman did talk to the serpent. The serpent was a god in this other religion, and according to Revelation, Satan. We can't know the exact version of this worship in the region around the Garden that they practiced from the time of Adam to Noah, but we can look at the versions that were known to be practiced. One interesting fact is that there were these mother goddess figurines commonly found all over the middle east. Archaeologists have remarked that there were few or none found in the area around Mt Karacadag. We would expect exactly that if God used the events at the Garden of Eden to teach against mother goddess worship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jaywill, posted 06-23-2009 1:09 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 06-23-2009 7:39 PM greentwiga has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 134 of 157 (513006)
06-23-2009 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by greentwiga
06-23-2009 6:30 PM


The woman did talk to the serpent. The serpent was a god in this other religion, and according to Revelation, Satan. We can't know the exact version of this worship in the region around the Garden that they practiced from the time of Adam to Noah
But there WERE no religions. There were no other people or other cultures.
These were the first two human beings on the planet. Religions of any kind had not started.
The inventor of the first human religion was CAIN. He rejected God's revelation and concocted his own way to approach God. That was the first human religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 6:30 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by greentwiga, posted 06-23-2009 9:49 PM jaywill has not replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 135 of 157 (513012)
06-23-2009 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jaywill
06-23-2009 7:39 PM


Notice that I said the time from Adam to Noah. I expect that Seth's descendants that remained true did not worship this religion. Cain, by killing his brother in the field looks like he worshiped in this manner. I expect that his descendants did also. The lack of these figurines in the region around Eden was during this same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 06-23-2009 7:39 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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