Where Faith Comes From in the "moderate" Christian religions

I think that curiosity is a part of our inherant nature, and that faith is simply one way to sate that curiosity.We've always asked the Big Questions - where do we come from? Why are we here? Is there a purpose to all of this? Why do bad things happen, especially to good or innocent people? Etc. Faith is one of the ways that people answer those questions (I'd argue that it's not a valid means to answering those questions, at least not with any accuracy since there is no tie to reality involved in faith, but that doesn't matter to most people).The natural response when one of those Big Questions is unanswered seems to be "speculate." This has given rise to a massive variety of mythology over the course of human history that was made up to answer questions people of the time had no way of answering accurately. The Sun was Apollo's polished chariot wheel. God made man from dust. Bad things happen to you because of sins committed in your previous lives. Sacrificing a human being each day ensures that the Sun will rise tomorrow.We all want those questions answered. In the modern age, we have a far greater ability to derive some of those answers from natural evidence rather than our own arbitrary speculation. We can test our answers now, and ensure that they accurately reflect reality. This has led to many faith-based answers simply disappearing - nobody actually believes that the Sun is Apollo's chariot wheel any more, because we have found a real answer to that question.Some questions, however, still can't be answered. The existential questions like "why are we here?" don't seem to have any objectively determinable answer. Many people (most?) still find the answers to these questions through faith, simply because there is no way to truly answer them.The division between "fundamentalist Christians" and "moderate Christians" seems to be that fundamentalists (like you, Peg) seem to believe that faith-based answers to all of the questions are superior to even those that have been answered by modern science (ie, Genesis is literally true and the Theory of Evolution is false), while "moderates" hold only to those answers that science is unable to provide (Genesis is allegorical, the Theory of Evolution is accurate, but God still dictates the purpose of our existence, Jesus rose from the dead, etc).I think that it's the desire to answer those questions that causes people to cling to faith. So long as the Bible answers at least some of those questions to greater personal satisfaction (regardless of actual accuracy) than other sources, people will continue to believe it holds special significance even if some of those same people discard large segments of the Bible as factually inaccurate.Personal satisfaction is the key, however. It's what allows the moderates to maintain faith even with no real reason to do so. It's subjective, it's arbitrary, and it's wishy-washy, but regardless of the relative accuracy of two potential answers, most people will still choose the answer that is most personally satisfying. Given that either a) when we die there is nothing, just as before we were born and we cease to exist or b) when we die we go to a heavenly afterlife forever, most people will choose b) - not because they have any objective reason to think that b) is more accurate, but because b) is more personally satisfying. It really does sometimes come down to a subjective determination of personal preference - people will treat reality in the same way they treat arbitrary personal value determinations. Why Christianity over Islam or Hindu or Buddhism? "Because I like Christianity better." That this personal comfort level is typically due to cultural familiarity and has nothing to do with anything factual or objective is irrelevant to the choice.But that's just my take. This question is extremely complicated to answer - I imagine that there are nearly as many reasons behind the faith of moderate Christians as there are moderate Christians...and that many or even most may be unaware of their own motivations. Many of them, like me before I began critically examining my own beliefs, simply never even think about it.

If Peg had a reputation of of not misrepresenting evolution I would not have said anything. Peg is notorious for making illogical and wrong arguments and statements.Evolution is not about anything that "caused our being". She should know that. You know that. What she said is wrong. In a debate format glaring errors like this should be exposed for the misrepresentations they are. This was not some simple slip by Peg. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Agreed.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.

Actually, what LSD does is very different from what people think it does.LSD, and other hallucinogens, basically re-wire your sensory receptors. "Touch" can be "taste", "smelling" can be "seeing", etc. That is why when you trip you can "smell" red and "see" the music.I don't know how this correlates with religious experiences or if that is even equal to a religious experience, but it can give a euphoric sensation. Maybe equal to a religious experience?However, the best, by far, of all hallucinogens, which I have experienced and does elevate your senses beyond what LSD can do is, DMT.Interestingly, since we are trying to pin-point a chemical in the brain that may naturally produce these experiences, DMT is produced naturally in the brain.From the wiki link:

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Several speculative and yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT, produced in the human brain, is involved in certain psychological and neurological states. DMT is naturally produced in small amounts in the brain and other tissues of humans and other mammals. Some believe it plays a role in mediating the visual effects of natural dreaming, and also near-death experiences, religious visions and other mystical states. A biochemical mechanism for this was proposed by the medical researcher J. C. Callaway, who suggested in 1988 that DMT might be connected with visual dream phenomena, where brain DMT levels are periodically elevated to induce visual dreaming and possibly other natural states of mind. A new theory proposed is that in addition to being involved in altered states of consciousness, endogenous DMT may be involved in the creation of normal waking states of consciousness. It is proposed that DMT and other endogenous hallucinogens mediate their neurological abilities by acting as neurotransmitters at a sub class of the trace amine receptors; a group of receptors found in the CNS where DMT and other hallucinogens have been shown to have activity. Wallach further proposes that in this way waking consciousness can be thought of as a controlled psychedelic experience. It is when the control of these systems becomes loosened and their behavior no longer correlates with the external world that the altered states arise.

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It's still speculation, but I thought it was an interesting correlation.[ABE] Found this to be interesting as well: [ABE]

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In Brazil there are a number of religious movements based on the use of ayahuasca, usually in an animistic context that may be shamanistic, sometimes mixed with Christian imagery. There are four main branches using DMT-MAOI based sacraments in Brazil:

• Indigenous Brazilian. These are the oldest cultures in the whole of South America that continue to use ayahuasca or analogue brews, such as the ones made from Jurema in the Pernambuco, near Recife.
• Santo Daime ("Saint Give Unto Me") and Barquinha ("Little Boat"). A syncretic religion from Brazil. The former was founded by Raimundo Irineu Serra in the early 1930s, as an esoteric Christian religion with shamanic tendencies. The Barquinha was derived from this one.
• Unio do Vegetal (Union of Vegetal or UDV). Another Christian ayahuasca religion from Brazil, is a single unified organization with a democratic structure.
• Neo-shamans. There are some self-styled shamanic facilitators in Brazil and other South American countries that use ayahuasca or analogous brews in their rituals and sances.

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- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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Ah. Thank you Oni. I thought I had the right drug, but I wasn't sure. I read somewhere that LSD promotes a feeling of spirituality or oneness and ascribed that to religion.

I've read this, too. When I did actual "LSD", rather than shrooms - WHICH IS A PLANT - it was years ago, with friends, mostly doing nothing. However, with shrooms I have tried to set the mood for more of a spiritual trip (went into nature, tried meditating, was alone), but never really had anything that I personally would describe as "spiritual."Euphoric, yes.When I tried DMT, and I've only tried it once. It was at a meditation retreat. At the end of the weekend, once you learned their form of meditation properly, you could take an optional DMT trip and try to apply what they taught you. This was in Canada, by the way, I've never found anything like this in the states - Unless you count Burning Man.I tried it and honestly, again, nothing "spiritual" happened. Again, euphoric, yes.It is my opinion that for these trips to give a sense of spirituality one must have an apriori belief in things of that nature. Atheists coming into the trip without such beliefs really have no notion of spirituality, for the most part, and don't really tap into that neural brain processing. - (complete speculation)But this is part of the subjective human experience and it's multitude of variance. I don't doubt anyone who claims the felt something during a trip that in there mind felt real. But I have never felt anything spiritual at all.Now, a "oneness" is different. But this would require use to define what we mean by "oneness." I have felt a oneness with nature, both on LSD and shrooms. Maybe some consider that spiritual, I wouldn't, though.- Oni

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Exactly. See Message 24 for details on this. By oneness I meant with the universe, a kind of "Nirvana" or complete understanding. True? No. Convincing? Yes. (to many)

Great post. If I remember correctly, I recall reading about this in Skeptical Inquirer. In the right setting it is quite achieveable. But, like with meditation, it takes experience with tripping to be able to reach this "nirvana" state.- Oni

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Hi Oni,I largely agree with your assessment of spirituality and hallucinogens. In my experience of taking such substances, I have experienced a wide range of effects, from a feeling of numinous transcendence and flashes of heightened insight, to moments of dread or just extended periods of giggling. I have never experienced anything that I would call spiritual, but maybe others might have described the same experience in exactly those terms.My opinion is that your drug experience will be shaped by your cultural expectations. If you expect to feel "spiritual" (and I'm never quite sure what that means exactly), then you will. If you expect to giggle and see pretty colours, you will. Environment has a big impact, as does the company you are in.In my opinion, none of it is to be taken too seriously. The experiences that hallucinogens produce can be profound and important, even life-changing, but any insight you gained by effectively poisoning your brain should be taken with a pinch of salt.I think that the reason why so many religions around the world are linked to hallucinogen use is simply that these drugs create a state of mental "otherness" and make the subjects highly suggestible. Add pre-existing superstitions to that mix and - presto! - you got yourself a religious experience.The fact that we can so effectively trigger such experiences with chemicals is telling evidence that religion comes from inside our heads and this is a point that I often bring up when confronted with "I felt the love of Jesus" style anecdotes from believers.Oh, and... regardless of whether or not it is a drug and how you choose to define that term, mushrooms are fungi, not plants. Fungi are actually more closely elated to animals than plants.Also, I don't feel that magic mushrooms (I am referring to Psilocybe semilanceata here) have any advantage over LSD for those seeking a spiritual experience. In fact LSD, with its steadier dosage and less unpredictable effects may be the better bet. I also associate mushrooms with muddiness of thought which does not seem to me to be especially helpful. Perhaps other magic mushroom species, like P. cubensis, are different.

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Now, a "oneness" is different. But this would require use to define what we mean by "oneness." I have felt a oneness with nature, both on LSD and shrooms. Maybe some consider that spiritual, I wouldn't, though.

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I feel that way almost whenever I am alone amidst nature, no drugs necessary. This is the closest thing in my experience to what others seem to regard as spiritual. I don't feel that it would be improved by the addition of any kind of supernatural or religious element though. In fact, I find that what heightens this feeling is an understanding of the manifold species and natural processes going on around me.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

Hi Granny Magda, And notice that our environment and the company we keep usually dictate how people interprete those religious experiences as well. For the most part, your geographical location and people you hang with is what you'll grasp at when you have an experience, that is deemed religious.With drugs, the company you keep can make the trip better, but with religion, it seems that it becomes a confirmation bias. And interestingly, they felt the love of "Jesus" specifically.This reminds me of a game we played while triping called "call it - see it." Basically, stand in front of a mirror, call something out, and see you become it. It's fun, not that easy to do, but freaks you out.Same thing I would say with "Jesus" specifically. Surround yourself in his history and when an experience happens you automatically "see" him. Science nerd I don't either, in fact, I found them less potent than LSD. I just prefer them over LSD for some stupid "from mother earth" belief I have now. Hmm, I never felt that. I try them about once, maybe twice a year. With a few friends while we camp, or something like that. I really have no idea which type of shooms they are. But I never felt bad on them, queezy or otherwise, but I did once with LSD long ago. And you know, one bad trip and the fun is over. Same here. I feel studying science is how humans were meant to "experience" nature before these silly god(s) plagued peoples minds. Very well said. I feel the same way.- Oni

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Well, I said that only "the most tendentious of atheists" would produce such an argument, and it seems that Bozarth is a worthy claimant of that title.And he is obviously talking hogwash. If Genesis is to be interpreted as a parable rather than literal fact, then it may abolish Adam and Eve as historical personages, but it does not abolish the notion of original sin, since, if it's a parable, then that is the spiritual meaning that it conveys.Indeed, if the book of Genesis didn't exist at all, or if we dismissed it as a fairy-tale with no sort of divine inspiration behind it even considered as allegory, we could still observe that humans in general, and we ourselves in particular, fall short of moral perfection. (And you will note in practice that when evangelists try to persuade people that they are in need of a savior, they don't start by trying to convince their audience that they are descended from Adam and Eve and then go on to prove that they must be morally imperfect on those grounds: because there is a much more direct way to reach this conclusion.)Now, so long as it is true that we are naturally in a state of sin and thereby estranged from God, then we are indeed in need of supernatural redemption to reconcile him to us, and this would be true whether or not God was literally outwitted by a talking snake.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Of course, this implies that there is some form of human moral perfection. (note human- not God/angels/Jesus)

I can define and (to that extent) imagine a perfect circle without supposing that such a thing exists in nature. A theologian would tell you that Jesus was human ...

no problem, i assumed you were correct because i often misread/misinterepret/misunderstand many posts lolim sure electrical stimuli can produce such experiences too, but i've never had a religious experience in the sense of seeing something supernatural or hearing voices etc. I have seen events in my life move in certain directions which to me appeared to be from a higher level...for example things that I know i could not have achieved or survived without help from a higher power.This is why i dont believe faith is merely 'physiological' I do believe it has to do with being made in Gods image and with a dependence on him. Of course if i didnt believe in God, i'd probably try to find a physiological reason for it because it does seem to be a very illogical phenomenon in a physical world.

it certainly wasn't a slip, you are most correct.evolution does not require a God, it happened miraculously, we came from existing stock, we were not individually created.Evolution DOES contradict the basic bible teaching that God created us in his own image. If i'm wrong on that, show me. Or are you saying that evolution does not say God did not individually create Mankind?