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Author Topic:   Seashells on tops of mountains.
traste
Member (Idle past 5143 days)
Posts: 173
Joined: 02-09-2009


Message 196 of 343 (513248)
06-26-2009 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
10-03-2007 7:07 PM


Re: hi, first post
Ringo writes: There were mountains before the flood. The question would be: How did seashells get to the tops of those mountains (in multiple layers
My reply: Are mountains stable in their shapes?

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 Message 201 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-28-2009 3:36 PM traste has not replied

  
traste
Member (Idle past 5143 days)
Posts: 173
Joined: 02-09-2009


Message 197 of 343 (513249)
06-26-2009 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dr Adequate
05-10-2009 2:20 AM


Re: The age of shells and the age of the organisms that made the shells
"Dr" Adequate writes:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your assertions. And your interpretation of them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
What a confident statement, I really hate people reason in this way.
Have you really know that the oldest writen record was not 5000 years old or you are just stupid? Have you really know that the dating methods are not reliable in some way?

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 198 of 343 (513254)
06-26-2009 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by traste
06-26-2009 9:10 PM


Re: The age of shells and the age of the organisms that made the shells
Have you really know that the oldest writen record was not 5000 years old or you are just stupid?
The oldest written records reliably date past 5,000 years ago.
Have you really know that the dating methods are not reliable in some way?
Your question is somewhat garbled, but I assume you are challenging dating methods and claiming that they are unreliable.
Better provide some evidence for that claim. So far, all of science is against you. This includes the various radiometric methods of dating, which correlate very well with annular events (tree-rings, varves, corals, etc.).
If you are claiming that all of those methods of dating are inaccurate you had best provide some evidence (and see tagline for some guidance).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 199 of 343 (513255)
06-26-2009 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by traste
06-26-2009 8:57 PM


Re: hi, first post
My reply: Are mountains stable in their shapes?
Depends.
What sort of time scale are you considering?
What are the mountains composed of?
How high are the mountains?
What's the climate like?
You're not going to erode the Rockies down to their cores in 40 days regardless of the amount of rain; but the Black Hills will certainly take a beating.
Edited by roxrkool, : No reason given.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 200 of 343 (513257)
06-27-2009 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by traste
06-26-2009 8:57 PM


possible explanations? ... what was the topic again???
Hi traste, looking for possible explanations?
My reply: Are mountains stable in their shapes?
That's not a reply, that's a question.
Generally speaking the question is not about already formed mountains, but the geology that forms mountains: is the geology of land masses stable enough over a 12,000 year period that rapid formation of new mountains with sedimentary layers containing seashells would not occur? Yes: there is no known process of forming mountains with many sedimentary layers, like Mt Everest, in a short period of time.
What a confident statement, I really hate people reason in this way.
Then I trust we won't find you making confident assertions that are not substantiated with evidence.
Have you really know that the oldest writen record was not 5000 years old or you are just stupid?
The earliest written language is just a little over 5000 years old
List of languages by first written accounts - Wikipedia
quote:
c. 3100 BC Sumerian Jemdet Nasr see Sumerian cuneiform; "proto-literate" period from about 3500 BC (see Kish tablet)
However the cave paintings at Lascaux France are dated significantly older:
Lascaux - Wikipedia
quote:
Lascaux is the setting of a complex of caves in southwestern France famous for its Paleolithic cave paintings. The original caves are located near the village of Montignac, in the Dordogne dpartement. They contain some of the most well-known Upper Paleolithic art. These paintings are estimated to be 16,000 years old. They primarily consist of realistic images of large animals, most of which are known from fossil evidence to have lived in the area at the time. In 1979, Lascaux was added to the UNESCO World Heritage Sites list along with other prehistoric sites in the Vzre valley.[1]
And there are cave paintings older than that:
Cave painting - Wikipedia
quote:
Cave paintings are paintings on cave walls and ceilings, and the term is used especially for those dating to prehistoric times. The earliest known European cave paintings date to Aurignacian, some 32,000 years ago. The purpose of the paleolithic cave paintings is not known. The evidence suggests that they were not merely decorations of living areas, since the caves in which they have been found do not have signs of ongoing habitation. Also, they are often in areas of caves that are not easily accessed. Some theories hold that they may have been a way of transmitting information, while other theories ascribe them a religious or ceremonial purpose.
So while they may not be a written language, they do certainly provide information, and they were evidently made by humans to communicate something.
And if we are looking for evidence of human culture, there are many objects that date even older than the paintings.
What this has to do with explaining how seashells get on tops of mountains, though, I can't figure out.
Have you really know that the dating methods are not reliable in some way?
If you want to discuss the reliability of dating methods, there are several threads where you can do so, such as Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1, however this too is not the topic of this thread.
Message 1
quote:
Seashell on mountain tops -- How do Young Earth Creationist explain them?
From what I have seen they often make the claim that the Sea Shell fossils found on mountaintops are *obvious* support for a flood but never offer to explain why. I suppose it is the thought the seashells live in aquatic environments and a global flood that covered the mountains somehow explains their existence.
That's the topic, that's the question.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : qsoute

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by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by traste, posted 06-26-2009 8:57 PM traste has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 343 (513414)
06-28-2009 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by traste
06-26-2009 8:57 PM


Re: hi, first post
Ringo writes: There were mountains before the flood. The question would be: How did seashells get to the tops of those mountains (in multiple layers
My reply: Are mountains stable in their shapes?
Stable in their shapes? I don't even know what that means.
There should be a good explanation for why mollusks were found on mountains. Mountains weren't always there because they were geologically formed, right? Earthquakes occur forming mountains of earth by pushing up multiple layers of strata that was once a few feet above sea level. The mounds calcify and become what is known now as mountains. All the sediment and the shells went with them during the process of subduction. Seashells on mountaintops are the end product. The end.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-28-2009 5:14 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 205 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-29-2009 11:43 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 202 of 343 (513427)
06-28-2009 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Hyroglyphx
06-28-2009 3:36 PM


Your geologic concepts are rather flawed
Earthquakes occur forming mountains of earth by pushing up multiple layers of strata that was once a few feet above sea level.
Various tectonic processes cause the uplift of mountains. Earthquakes may well be a byproduct, but are not really the cause. The uplifted material may or may not have an above sea level origin. Certainly, if the materials are marine origin sediments, then the origins are from below sea level.
The mounds calcify and become what is known now as mountains.
Actually, the limestone sediment was formed in the marine environment, largely biogeneticly. In other words, the limestone (calcium carbonate) of the rock itself is produced by organisms.
All the sediment and the shells went with them during the process of subduction.
Although there may well be related subduction activity, tectonic uplift is not subduction.
Or something like that. Further comment from our staff of geotypes is welcome.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-28-2009 3:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 343 (513506)
06-29-2009 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Minnemooseus
06-28-2009 5:14 PM


Re: Your geologic concepts are rather flawed
Various tectonic processes cause the uplift of mountains. Earthquakes may well be a byproduct, but are not really the cause.
I was breaking this down for someone who may not clearly understand.
Actually, the limestone sediment was formed in the marine environment, largely biogeneticly. In other words, the limestone (calcium carbonate) of the rock itself is produced by organisms.
Limestone is just decayed coral that has hardened over time. It has to be first out of the water to be limestone.
Although there may well be related subduction activity, tectonic uplift is not subduction.
I'm just speaking in generalities about the overall tectonic process that allows for mountains to come in to being. I'm just explaining how seashells can get on to a mountain, not writing a technical thesis on tectonics.
Obviously the implicit undertones were that seashells got there because of the Flood. I'm just clarifying for him other options he needs to consider before ruling out anything other than a worldwide flood.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 204 of 343 (513512)
06-29-2009 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Hyroglyphx
06-29-2009 9:53 AM


Re: Your geologic concepts are rather flawed
Limestone is just decayed coral that has hardened over time. It has to be first out of the water to be limestone.
No ... and no. This is wretchedly untrue.
Don't try to speak for geologists until you know some geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-29-2009 9:53 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 205 of 343 (513513)
06-29-2009 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Hyroglyphx
06-28-2009 3:36 PM


Re: hi, first post
All the sediment and the shells went with them during the process of subduction. Seashells on mountaintops are the end product.
You have confused subduction with uplift.
Really, get a geology textbook, read it, and until then maintain a discreet silence.
It pains me to see someone on the evolution side of the argument being as ignorant as a creationist. Stop it. My advice to you would be the same as my advice to them: shut up, go away, and learn something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-28-2009 3:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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pandion
Member (Idle past 3001 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 206 of 343 (513572)
06-30-2009 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Dr Adequate
06-29-2009 11:43 AM


Re: hi, first post
Dr Adequate writes:
It pains me to see someone on the evolution side of the argument being as ignorant as a creationist. Stop it. My advice to you would be the same as my advice to them: shut up, go away, and learn something.
I couldn't agree more. I'm a biologist but have some knowledge of geology from reading geology texts and thus learning something. Generally, when I know nothing I keep quiet or I ask questions. Not all do so.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 343 (513599)
06-30-2009 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Dr Adequate
06-29-2009 11:43 AM


Re: hi, first post
Really, get a geology textbook, read it, and until then maintain a discreet silence.
It pains me to see someone on the evolution side of the argument being as ignorant as a creationist. Stop it. My advice to you would be the same as my advice to them: shut up, go away, and learn something.
Oh, hello... Pleasure to meet you too! Thanks for the warm welcome to EvC, Doctor. It sure is swell to meet so many wonderful and learned people here, such as yourself!

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-29-2009 11:43 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2009 6:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 208 of 343 (513600)
06-30-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by pandion
06-30-2009 2:34 AM


Re: hi, first post
I've often found that volubility and ignorance are positively correlated.
--Percy

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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 209 of 343 (513649)
06-30-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Percy
06-30-2009 8:40 AM


Re: hi, first post
Percy writes:
I've often found that volubility and ignorance are positively correlated.
Volubility: noun - the quality of being facile in speech and writing
Facile:
1. Done or achieved with little effort or difficulty; easy. See Synonyms at easy.
2. Working, acting, or speaking with effortless ease and fluency.
3. Arrived at without due care, effort, or examination; superficial:
I guess you do learn something new everyday.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 210 of 343 (513652)
06-30-2009 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Taz
06-30-2009 3:59 PM


Re: hi, first post
I had to look it up, too.

This message is a reply to:
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