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Author Topic:   Seashells on tops of mountains.
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 211 of 343 (513664)
06-30-2009 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Percy
06-30-2009 8:40 AM


just to change the subtitle ...
I've often found that volubility and ignorance are positively correlated.
This should be kept as a reminder that it is not creationism, per se that engenders such reactions as seen here, but the ignorance of science and the basic facts, for the next time we see a oh poor me you are attacking me because I am a creationist whine.
Uplift causes mountains to be made of mollusc hills, and this process is still evident in the Himalayas and the Rockies. Everest and the Colorado Plateau are still undergoing uplift, measured these days by GPS transmitters.
Subduction can lead to uplift of the land over the subducted material, and this can form mountains, but it is not the only cause.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Percy, posted 06-30-2009 8:40 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 212 of 343 (513695)
07-01-2009 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Taz
06-30-2009 3:59 PM


Re: hi, first post
Beyond its strict dictionary definition, voluble also has a mildly derogatory common connotation as referring to someone who talks too much, and in this context is a bit closer in meaning to glib than facile.
--Percy

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 213 of 343 (513705)
07-01-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Hyroglyphx
06-30-2009 8:34 AM


Apologies
Oh, hello... Pleasure to meet you too! Thanks for the warm welcome to EvC, Doctor. It sure is swell to meet so many wonderful and learned people here, such as yourself!
I was unnecessarily brusque. I'm sorry.
You should still try to learn some geology before trying to teach others about it.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 343 (513720)
07-01-2009 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Dr Adequate
07-01-2009 6:55 AM


Re: Apologies
I was unnecessarily brusque. I'm sorry.
No hard feelings. It is kind of you to rectify it. I suppose I should remember that you've been here longer and see countless morons come in here on a daily basis. After awhile that grates on nerves and eventually we can all become less patient with imbecility.
You should still try to learn some geology before trying to teach others about it.
Geology has never been a strong suit of mine. Too disinterested in it, I guess. I was just trying to give the guy the basic gist about how shells could be on mountaintops.
Though I would like to ask what was wrong with subduction as opposed to uplift? Don't you need subduction to happen before any uplift occurs?

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 215 of 343 (513841)
07-02-2009 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Hyroglyphx
07-01-2009 8:22 AM


Mountain building (orogeny)
Sorry about not giving more information in my previous message. I wasn't really up to posting much, but I felt I couldn't let your less than accurate information just pass.
I do have a geology degree, but it and the course including mountain building was 30 years ago. I wasn't that strong on it back then, and I've forgotten much since then.
Orogeny - Wikipedia
quote:
Physiography
The process of orogeny can take tens of millions of years and build mountains from plains or even the ocean floor. Orogeny can occur due to continental collision or volcanic activity. Frequently, rock formations that undergo orogeny are severely deformed and undergo metamorphism. During orogeny, deeply buried rocks may be pushed to the surface. Sea bottom and near shore material may cover some or all of the orogenic area. If the orogeny is due to two continents colliding, the resulting mountains can be very high (see Himalaya).
Orogeny usually produces long linear structures, known as orogenic belts. Generally, orogenic belts consist of long parallel strips of rock exhibiting similar characteristics along the length of the belt. Orogenic belts are associated with subduction zones, which consume crust, produce volcanoes, and build island arcs. These island arcs may be added to a continent during an orogenic event.
I'm not real happy with the above quoted information, but I don't offhand have anything better to offer.
Perhaps the best case study is the Appalachian orogeny, of which the Alleghenian orogeny is apparently synonymous and/or the most significant event. Other earlier Appalachian region orogenies are the Taconic orogeny and the Acadian orogeny.
Though I would like to ask what was wrong with subduction as opposed to uplift? Don't you need subduction to happen before any uplift occurs?
In short, orogeny is caused by continental collision. It would seem that this would require the subduction of oceanic crust prior to the collision. This subduction event probably would be considered part of the orogenic event.
In all, study of an orogenic event can be complex. But the above cited material can hopefully function as a starting point for further discussion.
Please, no POTM nominations for this dog of a posting.
Moose

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pandion
Member (Idle past 3000 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 216 of 343 (513844)
07-02-2009 2:03 AM


Let me see if I can help.
The "clams on mountain tops" claim generally proposed by creationists as evidence of a flood is usually a reference to the fossil shells found in the limestone deposits on Mt. Everest and other Himalayan peaks. Nice try, but no cigar. Limestone doesn't form in year and the vast amounts of fossils found on Himalayan peaks couldn't possible have grown in a single year. Thus, rather than the mythology of the Bible, we must look elsewhere for a reasonable explanation.
So picture this. A shallow sea bottom with abundant life between two large land masses. These land massed are moving towards each other. As they do so, the edge of the minor land mass is pushed under that of the major land mass. But at the same time, the edge of the major land mass acts as a plow that scrapes up the surface of the minor mass as the minor land mass sub-ducts. As these two land massed push together, they form a huge mound of the material that was the sea bottom between them. Thus, there are huge mountains of limestone that contain sea fossils.
Of course, the subduction of one tectonic plate under another causes volcanic activity. And that is true of the subduction of the Indian plate under the Asian plate. The Deccan Traps are evidence of the collision of two major land masses. As a result, there were huge volcanic flows and the formation of huge mountain ranges.
The thing is that the fossils found in the Himalayas aren't the same as any that exist today. In fact, they didn't exist 4,500 years ago when this miraculous flood was supposed to have occurred.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 217 of 343 (513846)
07-02-2009 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by pandion
07-02-2009 2:03 AM


References please
Of course, the subduction of one tectonic plate under another causes volcanic activity. And that is true of the subduction of the Indian plate under the Asian plate. The Deccan Traps are evidence of the collision of two major land masses.
References for the subduction zone related origin of the Deccan volcanics, please.
Per here, they are:
quote:
It is postulated that the Deccan Traps eruption was associated with a deep mantle plume. The area of long-term eruption (the hotspot), known as the Runion hotspot, is suspected of both causing the Deccan Traps eruption and opening the rift that once separated the Seychelles plateau from India. Seafloor spreading at the boundary between the Indian and African Plates subsequently pushed India north over the plume, which now lies under Runion island in the Indian Ocean, southwest of India. The mantle plume model has, however, been challenged.
The Deccan Traps are of basaltic composition, for which the deep mantle plume hypothesis would seem to make sense. Not subduction zone related volcanism, but independent of needing any plate collision (although they did happen at the same time).
Moose

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pandion
Member (Idle past 3000 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 218 of 343 (513932)
07-02-2009 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Minnemooseus
07-02-2009 2:59 AM


Re: References please
I stand corrected.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 219 of 343 (513959)
07-02-2009 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Percy
07-01-2009 5:41 AM


Re: hi, first post
Percy writes:
Beyond its strict dictionary definition, voluble also has a mildly derogatory common connotation as referring to someone who talks too much, and in this context is a bit closer in meaning to glib than facile.
Am I voluble?
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

People Eating Tasty Animals

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 220 of 343 (513967)
07-02-2009 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Taz
07-02-2009 7:32 PM


Re: hi, first post
Taz writes:
Am I voluble?
Oh, indubitably!
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Smilie issue?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 221 of 343 (513969)
07-02-2009 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Taz
07-02-2009 7:32 PM


subtopics and pointless offtopic rambles
Am I voluble?
No just posting off topic and (like others) without reference to a rather idiotic subtitle.
The topic is seashells on mountaintops.
The subtitle, back 204 messages ago was just saying hi, and it is no longer relevant.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 222 of 343 (513970)
07-02-2009 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by RAZD
07-02-2009 9:32 PM


Re: seashells on mountaintops and other creationist fantasies
OK, back to the topic.
The idea that seashells on mountaintops is evidence for a global flood is instead evidence that creationists:
1) Know, or care, little about science and its findings, or the scientific method; and
2) Are seeking desperately for any shred of evidence--no matter how flawed or erroneous--that there was a global flood about 4,350 years ago.
Creation "science" isn't meant to convince scientists, its meant to confirm the beliefs of true believers and perhaps fool school boards.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 223 of 343 (514045)
07-03-2009 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Coyote
07-02-2009 9:40 PM


Re: seashells on mountaintops and other creationist fantasies
Coyote writes:
1) Know, or care, little about science and its findings, or the scientific method;
can you describe the scientific method as you understand it please.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 224 of 343 (514070)
07-03-2009 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Peg
07-03-2009 9:53 AM


Re: seashells on mountaintops and other creationist fantasies
can you describe the scientific method as you understand it please.
Not on this thread--it would be very off topic.
But you could start a new thread, it sounds like it could be fun.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 225 of 343 (518408)
08-05-2009 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by RAZD
05-10-2009 2:16 PM


bump for Lindalou brachiopods
Lindalou,
This is some of the evidence you asked about. You'll have to look up articles on them to find others - see Message 189

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