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Member (Idle past 864 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Pick and Choose Fundamentalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
anglagard Member (Idle past 864 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
To repeat the OP:
A recent off-topic reply of mine at Puzzled (Message 155 of Thread ZeitGeist in Forum Coffee House) has got me to thinking about how Biblical fundamentalists pick and choose what portions of the Bible that one should live by and what portions one is allowed to ignore. I have noticed that according to Biblical Christians (using jar's term) one book in particular, Genesis, is considered literally inerrant, yet other books, such as Deuteronomy or Leviticus can just be ignored depending upon the personal whim of the fundie. Why don't all fundamentalists of the literal and inerrant persuasion look like this guy? Online Bookstore: Books, NOOK ebooks, Music, Movies & Toys | Barnes & Noble® So what gives? What is the rationale for worshiping each word in Genesis and ignoring what one does not like in Leviticus or Deuteronomy? I just finished reading the book I was referring to in the OP, namely The Year of Living Biblically by A.J.Jacobs. In this book the author actually tries to live according to all the rules of the OT and NT for a year as they come up in his reading of the RSV. From page 4:
quote: The difficulties the author has in following such commands as not mixing fibers in his garments requires a fiber expert with a microscope just to fulfill. Of course commands to stone to death any witches, Sabbath violators, disobedient children, and those who engage in forbidden sexual practices can not be taken literally without a likely quick trip to prison, so such rules are obeyed symbolically, such as using pebbles. The book rather quickly shows the difficulty, if not outright impossibility, of obeying all the OT rules in the modern age. One thing that should be mentioned is he sure has a forgiving and supportive wife. However the best part of the book is where he summarizes his conclusions after meeting theologians from Orthodox Jews to Creation Museum shills to his guru-like uncle by marriage. From page 327-329:
quote: This is the conclusion from someone who actually tried to practice what so many only preach. Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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Teapots&unicorns Member (Idle past 4915 days) Posts: 178 Joined: |
If I may be entitled to bring something up quickly, what about those who are not pick and choose fundamentalists? I'm not talikning about those that ignore science completely and take the entirety of the bible (contradictions and flaws) seriously; I'm talking about "moderate" Christians- those that may take up to the entire Bible as a metaphor or allegory. It is at these people that I direct this question: Where, without any base for belief or fact supporting your personal religion, do you get your religion? I'm just curious.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen Roberts I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in- Dan Foutes
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greentwiga Member (Idle past 3455 days) Posts: 213 From: Santa Joined: |
The yaer of living Biblically is an interesting attempt, but misses the point of the New Testament. When the Jews began taking the Christian message to Gentiles, the developed a problem. Many wanted to insist that the gentiles obey all the Jewish laws. Paul opposed them and it was decided that only 4 minimal laws needed to be obeyed. The Christian Jews still had to obey the laws, at least when living among the Jews. This allowed the Christian to live in other cultures, adopting their culture. The main constraint was to care more for the other person than one self. So, if the culture sacrificed children (burn them to Molech, etc) then the Christian couldn't do it because that was not loving to the child. Leviticus is a set of laws for the Jews and interesting as history. As for Genesis, again it is treated as history. After all, Abraham was promised the land. I am not a child of Abraham, so I have no right to the land and I can't obey that covenant (law) in Genesis either.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5267 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
'I'm talking about "moderate" Christians- those that may take up to the entire Bible as a metaphor or allegory.'
So if a man called Jesus said "I am the light," it's metaphor, but the existence of Jesus is itself allegory. How much does that non-existence matter, if the moral teaching of 'Jesus' is followed because it is held to be optimal?
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
greentwiga writes:
quote: And this, of course, is in direct conflict to what Jesus said: Not one jot, not one tittle of the law shall be changed till all be fulfilled. Therefore, what we tend to call "Christianity" is actually "Paulinism." Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5267 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
'And this, of course, is in direct conflict to what Jesus said: Not one jot, not one tittle of the law shall be changed till all be fulfilled.'
Maybe all has been fulfilled.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4957 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
anglagard writes: What is the rationale for worshiping each word in Genesis and ignoring what one does not like in Leviticus or Deuteronomy? genesis doesnt contain the mosaic law code, leviticus and deuteronomy do.
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greentwiga Member (Idle past 3455 days) Posts: 213 From: Santa Joined: |
Laws and covenants were given to specific people or groups of people. Noah was commanded to build an ark. We aren't building arks. The Jews were given a set of laws. The argument in acts was over whether gentiles would be required to follow the laws. All, not just Paul, agreed that the gentiles did not have to follow the Jewish laws. There are other commands in Genesis that we do not follow, such as moving to Canaan (given to Abraham) There is much of Exodus and Numbers, etc that we follow as absolutely as we do Genesis. This would be the history of the Exodus. It is the history of Genesis that is our focus.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to me:
quote: That would certainly explain the crankiness of certain people. The world ended, this is hell, and they are upset that they didn't actually get to go to heaven like they thought they would. You do realize that by "all be fulfilled," Jesus meant the end of the world, right? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
greentwiga responds to me:
quote: And Jesus was a Jew. And Jesus was telling all who would follow him that they would need to follow the Jewish law: Not one jot, not one tittle of the law shall be changed till all be fulfulled. He exhorted those who listed to follow the law and teach others so. Jesus did not do away with the need to follow Jewish law. Christians who think they can get away with wearing cotton-polyester blends, eating shellfish, working on the Sabbath, etc. are certainly not following Jesus. They're following Paul. Why do you place the commands of Paul above the commands of Jesus?
quote: But according to Jesus, that answer is yes, you must. It's a direct commandment from him: Not one jot, not one tittle of the law shall be changed till all be fulfilled. Paul said something different. Are you a follower of Jesus or a follower of Paul?
quote: Incorrect. There's a reason that there was such a schism in the early times of Christianity. It was precisely over this: James was preaching the teachings of Jesus and living up to the commandment that the law must still be followed. He wasn't having much success ("You want me to cut off my what?!") Paul, on the other hand, was playing fast and loose with the edicts of Jesus. He happened to be better at convincing people who weren't Jews to follow his new-fangled religion by telling them they didn't actually have to practice the law that Jesus commanded them to. Are you a follower of Jesus or a follower of Paul? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5267 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
'You do realize that by "all be fulfilled," Jesus meant the end of the world, right?'
It may be that he meant that all of the law will be fulfilled. His parameter may have been moral, not temporal.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to me:
quote: Incorrect. He was talking temporal. You didn't actually bother to look up the verse, did you? I realize that I didn't give out the specific chapter and verse, but surely you know the verse and can look it up, right? Because I left a bit out:
Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Clearly, Jesus means that the law has not changed ("Think not that i am come to destroy the law.") Too, Jesus is clearly talking about the physical end of the world and that it will happen Real Soon Now . Have heaven and earth passed? No? Then all has not been fulfilled and you must still keep the law. Do you follow Jesus or do you follow Paul? You want more proof that Jesus was talking about the physical end of the world and that it was going to happen very soon?
9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Are you implying that there are some 2000-year-old people wandering around? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 864 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Peg writes: genesis doesnt contain the mosaic law code, leviticus and deuteronomy do. The Mosaic Law Code is not the issue. The issue is why do those who find a book infallible still manage to pick and choose what parts to follow and what parts to ignore. Your diversionary and simplistic comment fools few, if any, around here. Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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anglagard Member (Idle past 864 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Rrhain writes: Therefore, what we tend to call "Christianity" is actually "Paulinism." Ain't that the truth. A subject (or thread) in and of itself. Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5267 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
'Have heaven and earth passed?'
"'Til heaven and earth pass, we will not leave here without getting our money." They got their money.
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