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Author | Topic: Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Agent Uranium [GPC] Inactive Member |
Amen.
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
To get back to the original post, living in Boise, Idaho I have become very familiar with the faith, to put it mildly. Although Mormons are primarily rooted in Utah, they have a strong political influence here in the Gem State.
So, just a background as I have understoood it. --Jesus came to Central America after his ascension in Israel. --His teachings were recorded on golden tablets (have since been lost) which were translated by the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith (circa 1800's). --Joseph Smith also received prophetic messages from God. Just some curious aspects of the faith --members wear "holy underwear," always fun to see the look on a missionary's face when you ask them if they have their holy underwear on. --used to believe in polygamy, dropped it when they were denied statehood in the USA (Utah that is). Message from God told them to drop polygamy so they were then accepted into the Union. --they are very adamant about tithing, heard of people being sent their own tax returns with a bill from the Mormon church asking for unpaid tithes. Now, I am not advocating that one should not join the Mormon church, relgious freedom is right up there with breathing as far as I am concerned. But beware and know what you are getting into.
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A_Christian Inactive Member |
Mormons also believe that God (the Father) was once a man and
has a wife called Wisdom and together they pump out spirit babies who prove themselves worthy by coming to earth as humans. They also believe Jesus and Satan (Good vs. Bad) are brothers. Their belief is ALL about works and becoming gods and reassuming The ritualism that they practice in their "temples" is based on
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 695 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Hrm, that really puts some of the works of Orson Scott Card (noted s-f author and Mormon) into perspective... it really explains some of his characterization choices. Just an aside.
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Agent Uranium [GPC] Inactive Member |
quote: Well, they paid me a visit. One of them had either grown very old since when I first saw her, or else someone else had taken her place. They seemed very nice, and certainly do more in terms of going out and preaching about Mormonism than I do with Islam. Hilariously, I had to rush upstairs as soon as I saw their car pull up because I had a Pro-Pain t-shirt on. They play sort of Hardcore-ish music, and two-thirds of them used to play in Crumbsuckers. That shirt depicts a person I thought represented BVM (Blessed Virgin Mary) holding Christ's decapitated head by his hair, like a war trophy of sorts. I replaced my t-shirt with a nice, thin blue shirt. We spoke about various religious matters and they told me of their beliefs. We started with them saying a prayer. When we finished they asked ME to say a prayer. I recited one from our Qu'ran, but didn't translate it into English for their benefit. I regret this, since it involved a recital that only one God exists, Allah, and that Mohammed (s.a.w.) came as his last prophet. I should have told them this so that they wouldn't think I had sneakily tried to convert them to my cause by an appeal to Allah! I don't consider their Joseph Smith a Prophet. Apparently they still have prophets, one a man called Gordon B. Hinckley. They seem to believe really strongly in this. Any thoughts? After each prophet dies a new one appears. I almost mentioned Buffy The Vampire Slayer but, thankfully, I resisted. I spoke of similarities with Islam, which intrigued that older lady. She seemed slightly perturbed that Islam's last prophet preached some time during 7th Century AD. I can only assume she noticed those same similarities and wanted to know if Islam had come after Mormonism or not. ------------------ quote:
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Jake22 Inactive Member |
Based on limited research and talking to Mormon friends, here is the gist of Mormonism...
god was once a man who lived on a planet. He fulfilled the requirements of salvation so he was rewarded in the afterlife with a planet to rule of his own. We all have this potential to rule our own planet in the afterlife if we're good Mormons. Once a man is a god, he has celestial sex with his Mormon wife, who he spends eternity with ruling the planet, and each time they have sex a soul is birthed for their planet. Polygamy was encouraged because a god would spend eternity with many women, and thus populate his planet faster. BAck to Yahweh according to Mormons...The first two souls born to god were Jesus and Lucifer. God called a council of the gods to determine his plan of salvation for his planet. He decided to have one of his sons sent to be a sacrifice. Lucifer volunteered, but Jesus was picked by God, and thus began Lucifer's rebellion. Jesus was sacrificed and with a combination of belief in Jesus and being spotlessly morally, one can gain salavation, too. You should read Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. It has some excellent info about Mormonism from a Christian point of view. It talks about how the cofounders of Mormonism denied the religion, saying it was a big hoax or something to that effect, but Joseph Smith chided and excommunicated them. There are also some interesting prophesies...Smith prophecied that there were people who lived on the moon and dressed like Quakers. When that was proved wrong, it was taken out of scriptures. Someone(Bringham young?) also prophecied that polgamy would never be made illegal in Utah. I suppose they chose statehood over prophesy fulfillment on that one. OKay, well this is just off the top of my head. Again, I would suggest Martin's book, which gives references and such. I have no doubt that your missionary guests will deny most of this, so it may be good to brush up on the knowledge. They go through all kinds of training to expect and respond to anything you may say, so it would be good to at least know if what they are saying is actually backed by their scriptures or, moreover, by the Bible. The religion has some wonderfuls aspects...missionary emphasis, morality, community, family, etc., but it is not christian according to the Bible, and thus by Christians (notably because of the polytheistic views). Hope that helps. edit: P.S. The part about becoming gods is preached less and less in the Mormon church as time goes by, and the church has reinterpretted the passages to not explicitly say this. A friend of mine raised in the Mormon church said he stopped hearing the hard core Mormon thoughts preached about 30 years ago. Since then the more "Christian" stuff has been preached. Also, he said there is much odd stuff that goes on in the temple, and anyone who goes in is sworn to secrecy. Hehe, I dunno exactly what he was talking about, but maybe it'd be worth doing some research? [This message has been edited by Jake22, 08-20-2003]
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PaulK Member Posts: 17166 Joined: Member Rating: 3.6 |
I would be very careful about trusting Martin entirely - not because there aren't many issues on which Mormonism can be challenged but because it is not unusual for Christian anti-Mormon sources to "spin" the facts giving an unreliable picture. The bit about the "cofounders" for instance sounds very dubious to me.
A better source might be the web site www.lds-mormon.com put together by a former Mormon. Everything I have seen about it suggests that it is more balanced than many pro- or anti- Mormon sources.
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theOtter Inactive Junior Member |
Well, there’s been a lot of posts in this thread; some good, some bad, some downright ugly. The bottom line is that if you want to know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or any religion, for that matter), the best way is to get it straight from the horse’s mouth. There are plenty of places—both on the web and otherwise—where you can find out why someone believes something is false; this seems particularly true of The Church of Jesus Christ. However, I personally think it makes more sense to ask someone that actually knows what they’re talking about to explain it. Most often, this is someone who is affiliated with the organization in question.
I joined The Church of Jesus Christ just over 12 years ago, having grown up in a very mainstream Protestant family. My parents were understandably afraid that I was joining a “cult,” but a visit with their minister straightened them out. He informed them that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is exactly what the name implies—a Christian Church—and that they had absolutely nothing to worry about. (I truly thank God for this wonderful man, as I know of many, many others who will happily badmouth anything outside their own congregation.) Anyway, I’d like to clear the air about some of the things I’ve seen posted on here, since it’s obvious that most people have, at best, a partial understanding. Origins of so-called “Mormonism” “I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!“ Through this and many other experiences, Joseph Smith, Jr., was called to be a prophet of God, just like many of the earlier prophets (including those of the Old and New Testaments) who also saw God and were called to teach others. The Book of Mormon Probably the most important thing about “Mormonism” is a promise contained in the Book of Mormon itself, made by the last prophet of the civilization (that same Moroni who, as a resurrected being, gave Joseph the plates): if you want to know if the Book of Mormon (or anything, for that matter) is true, don’t take my word for it; ask God. He’ll let you know, just like he let me, and Joseph Smith Jr., and at least 12 million other people know. It’s a little thing called prayer, and I can testify that, done with faith, it’s not just a one-way conversation. Some less important stuff that’s been mentioned: Tithing Polygamy God’s family Jesus Christ as Savior Masonry Prophets Prophecies The Three Witnesses Well, pretty lengthy response, I know, but there’s a lot to be dealt with (and much that I haven’t even touched on). If you want to know the truth about “Mormonism,” feel free to e-mail me. Better yet, check out the official web site. It’s certainly a lot more accurate than anything posted on here. ------------------
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nator Member (Idle past 1398 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Actually, asking someone affiliated with a particular church about their church is only going to give you one side of a many-sided picture. For instance, since you are ovbiously a devotee of your own religion, it is basically impossible for you to be an objective observer. I mean, your post was a nice apologetic, but it certainly spins history to be more favorable towards the mormons. Mormons, in particular, are very, very eager to convert new members, so they are not likely to tell you anything negative or wierd or critical of their own organisation. The LDS church has a formidable public relations and advertising image as wholesome, family-oriented, and really, really nice. That is not the whole history nor reality of the Mormons. Racism, homophobia and misogyny are a big part of Mormon history and current beliefs, for example. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-02-2003] [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-02-2003]
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theOtter Inactive Junior Member |
quote:Well, not to be argumentative, but if these things have or have ever had any part in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, twelve years of studying both LDS and non-LDS writings have never brought any of them to light. On racism, for example: in the first half of the nineteenth century, most churches throughout the United States of American were segregated along white/black lines. The Church of Jesus Christ, however, has never been. In fact, Joseph Smith Jr. once sold his favorite horse to buy the freedom of a slave he had never even met; he also ran as a third-party candidate in the 1844 Presidential election (without any real hopes of winning, of course) on an anti-slavery platform. Do these sound like the actions of a racist man, much less the leader of a racist organization? The racism I suppose you are citing is that, until 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints taught that the descendants of Cain were not to be ordained to the Priesthood. They could be baptized, confirmed, and enjoy full fellowship in the Church and full salvation in the kingdom of God, but they were not to hold the Priesthood until God directed otherwise (which happened in 1978). This shouldn’t be surprising, since in the Bible, only the sons of Aaron were to be given the Priesthood for a time. Then during Christ’s mortal ministry, God directed that the Priesthood was to be extended to all worthy males (except, presumably, the descendants of Cain). There’s nothing racist about this; it’s simply a matter of what God wants, when God wants it. Blacks have always been able to receive the Priesthood. Elijah Abel, for example, was the first black ordained in this dispensation—and that happened in 1836, when the Church itself was just barely fully organized! It’s just that the descendants of Cain—many of whom were black—were not to be ordained. (I agree, by the way, that several prominent members of the Church have been very racist; people are imperfect. However, the views of a few—even a very prominent few—should not be construed to be those of the whole.) As for homophobia, I can only assume you base this on our teaching that homosexuality is a sin. Well, if that’s what it means to be homophobic, then The Church of Jesus Christ is guilty as charged. However, my understanding of homophobia is a fear and/or hatred of those who practice homosexuality. The Church certainly does not practice this. Those who practice homosexuality are more than welcome to come to Church, to worship with us, etc., etc., etc.. However, if one wants to be baptized, take the Sacrament, go to the Temple, etc., that person must truly and fully repent of their sins. That’s not homophobia; that’s Christianity. (Again, I’m sure that there are quite a few members of the Church that are quite homophobic; this is bound to happen in any large organization. But again, the views of a few are just that: their own views, for which they will be held accountable when they stand before the Lord in the Day of Judgment.) Misogyny: I can’t even imagine where this one came from. People always talk about the Church giving up polygamy in order for Utah to become a state, but did you know they also had to give up women’s rights? As early as the 1850s, all citizens of Utah—including women—were equal before the law. They had the right to own property, the right to hold a job, and even the right to vote. In fact, if you look at the literature of the late nineteenth century, you’ll find many books (written by those outside the Church) about how Latter-day Saint men couldn’t keep their women in their place. Heck, five of the first ten female doctors in the United States of America were Latter-day Saints! If anybody was misogynistic, it was the government of the good old U. S. of A.: Utah women were allowed to vote right up until the 1890s, when Utah became a state and they lost that right. Even then, they still had the right to vote in the Church. Well, I’ve devoted more time to this than I wanted to, so let me finish up with this: I fully recognize that there are two sides to every story, and I see nothing wrong with “spinning history” in my own favor if everyone else on this board seems bent on spinning it against me. However, I think it’s very dangerous to assume that anyone can be a completely objective observer. There’s plenty of people out there trying their darnedest to destroy The Church of Jesus Christ, and while I don’t agree with what they’re saying, I will defend to the death their right to say it. If there’s one thing I can’t stand, though, it’s people trying to tell me what my Church—and by extension, I—believe. You may believe whatever you want to believe, but when you try to tell me what I believe, you’d better be ready for a lambasting in return. The Church of Jesus Christ is the church of Jesus Christ. I know this. I, like countless millions of others, have asked God, and He’s confirmed it on more occasions that I could ever begin to number. If you want to know the truth, don’t ask your preacher, don’t ask your minister, don’t ask your LDS friends, don’t even ask me. Ask God. He’ll tell you, the same way he told me. And please don’t even try to tell me that I don’t know something just because you don’t know it. That’s about as valid as me claiming the sun doesn’t exist because I can’t see it at the moment. ;-) ------------------
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PaulK Member Posts: 17166 Joined: Member Rating: 3.6 |
Just a point, but if you don't know that the LDS Church banned Blacks banned from the priesthood for a good part of their history, then that illustrates the point that relying solely on official sources is questionable.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 695 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
How do you know who the decendants of Cain are?
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theOtter Inactive Junior Member |
quote:Actually, I used to believe the same thing—that the Church banned blacks from the Priesthood for a time, and most “official” sources seem to indicate this. However, I’ve never relied solely on official publications. The Indiana University library (one of the largest academic libraries in the nation) has an entire bookshelf on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the great majority of them are from non-LDS authors. I’ve read quite a few books on that shelf—none of which were written by members of the Church—including at least two that dealt exclusively with blacks and the Priesthood (sorry, don’t remember the titles; it’s been a few years). The fact of the matter is that, as I said in my last post, it is an historical fallacy to say that blacks as a race were banned from the Priesthood. Many blacks were denied the Priesthood because they were of the wrong lineage (eg. descended from Cain), but so were any whites that came from that lineage. It’s just that there is a huge overlap between African-Americans and the descendants of Cain (in other words, very few people are one or the other; the great majority of us are either neither or both), so it’s easy to miss the distinction. quote:Another great question. Among the most important tenets of The Church of Jesus Christ is that any one of us can receive revelation for those over whom we preside. You can receive revelation for you; I can receive revelation for me; PaulK can receive revelation for PaulK. Those who are head of a given family can receive revelation for that family. A bishop can receive revelation for the ward over which he is called to preside. The list goes on and on, until you finally get to the President of the Church, who is a guy just like anybody else who just happens to have been called to preside over (and therefore, receive revelation for) the entire Earth for a while. In any given ward, it is the bishop’s responsibility to prayerfully determine who is to hold what calling. It is up to each bishop to determine when (and if) each member of his ward is to hold the Aaronic Priesthood, and what calling in said Priesthood they are to hold at any given time. Before the revelation of 1978, this including determining—hopefully through revelation—descendancy from Cain. Do bishops make mistakes? Of course they do. They’re only human, just like the rest of us. But hopefully, each one is spiritually in tune enough to not screw up such a major decision. ------------------
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nator Member (Idle past 1398 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[/quote]They could be baptized, confirmed, and enjoy full fellowship in the Church and full salvation in the kingdom of God, but they were not to hold the Priesthood until God directed otherwise (which happened in 1978).[/quote]
Don't you think it's a bit naieve to look at these kinds of big changes to LDS doctrine as Godly "directions" when they "just happen" to coincide with strong political or social pressure which would make the church look bad (racist) or break the law (plural marriage)? quote: ...except they can be viewed as a whole if the racist is the leader of the entire organization, wouldn't you say? There's lots of racist instructional materials for Mormons from just a few decades ago. Read it here: http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml You can't just shrug it off as a "few prominent people were racist." As for misogyny, let me ask you a question. How many female church officials are there that have general authority similar to, and over, males? quote: I did ask God. Nothing happened. quote: Actually, that's not a valid comparison. The sun is observable by anyone. I believe that the sun exists through thousands of repeated experiences of seeing it, feeling it's warmth, etc. By comparison, each and every person's experience and perception of religion or the supernatural is utterly and completely inside their own head. I do accept that you believe that certain things are true but you believe them in spite of evidence. Belief without evidence is called "faith", and you are entitled to it. Just don't expect anyone who requires evidence to buy it.
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nator Member (Idle past 1398 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
You know what's creepy, Otter?
That LDS people, when challenged, often say the same thing like they have been coached ahead of time. I have spoken to several mormon people about racism and homophobia, and they have all used the, "surely some people in the Church will hold these views; it would be expected in any large organisation." line. I have spoken to several mormon women about the fact that no women can attain preisthood or any authority in the Church, and they all say exactly the same thing, which is, "I wouldn't want to be a priest!" It's just scary that you are all taught what to say, and that you all learn it so well and don't seem to even think anything you aren't supposed to think, and that you all say very nearly the exact same words! [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-03-2003]
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