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Author Topic:   Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 264 (50895)
08-18-2003 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by A_Christian
08-18-2003 11:22 AM


GOD ALWAYS establishes a remnant who HOLD to the TRUTH

Amen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 11:22 AM A_Christian has taken no action

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 264 (51244)
08-19-2003 9:25 PM


To get back to the original post, living in Boise, Idaho I have become very familiar with the faith, to put it mildly. Although Mormons are primarily rooted in Utah, they have a strong political influence here in the Gem State.

So, just a background as I have understoood it.

--Jesus came to Central America after his ascension in Israel.

--His teachings were recorded on golden tablets (have since been lost) which were translated by the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith (circa 1800's).

--Joseph Smith also received prophetic messages from God.

Just some curious aspects of the faith

--members wear "holy underwear," always fun to see the look on a missionary's face when you ask them if they have their holy underwear on.

--used to believe in polygamy, dropped it when they were denied statehood in the USA (Utah that is). Message from God told them to drop polygamy so they were then accepted into the Union.

--they are very adamant about tithing, heard of people being sent their own tax returns with a bill from the Mormon church asking for unpaid tithes.

Now, I am not advocating that one should not join the Mormon church, relgious freedom is right up there with breathing as far as I am concerned. But beware and know what you are getting into.


Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by A_Christian, posted 08-20-2003 11:19 AM Loudmouth has taken no action

  
A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 264 (51371)
08-20-2003 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Loudmouth
08-19-2003 9:25 PM


Mormons also believe that God (the Father) was once a man and
has a wife called Wisdom and together they pump out spirit babies
who prove themselves worthy by coming to earth as humans. They
also believe Jesus and Satan (Good vs. Bad) are brothers.

Their belief is ALL about works and becoming gods and reassuming
the earthly family unit once one gets to heaven (with men being
the father gods).

The ritualism that they practice in their "temples" is based on
Masonic rituals. Their "temples" are only open to mormons in
"good standing". They are a C U L T... They need Jesus Christ
the SAVIOR and not an example of living correctly. They are
not Christian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Loudmouth, posted 08-19-2003 9:25 PM Loudmouth has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2003 5:49 PM A_Christian has taken no action

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 695 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 49 of 264 (51412)
08-20-2003 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by A_Christian
08-20-2003 11:19 AM


They
also believe Jesus and Satan (Good vs. Bad) are brothers.

Hrm, that really puts some of the works of Orson Scott Card (noted s-f author and Mormon) into perspective... it really explains some of his characterization choices.

Just an aside.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by A_Christian, posted 08-20-2003 11:19 AM A_Christian has taken no action

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 264 (51418)
08-20-2003 6:12 PM


Two Sisters Make A Trip To Huddersfield
quote:
One of those two sisters explained to me their religion's origin, and their bible contains a foreword & testimonies signifying those 8 people's objectivity. They will return on August 20th to have a further chat with me about my thoughts on their holy book.

Well, they paid me a visit. One of them had either grown very old since when I first saw her, or else someone else had taken her place. They seemed very nice, and certainly do more in terms of going out and preaching about Mormonism than I do with Islam.

Hilariously, I had to rush upstairs as soon as I saw their car pull up because I had a Pro-Pain t-shirt on. They play sort of Hardcore-ish music, and two-thirds of them used to play in Crumbsuckers. That shirt depicts a person I thought represented BVM (Blessed Virgin Mary) holding Christ's decapitated head by his hair, like a war trophy of sorts. I replaced my t-shirt with a nice, thin blue shirt.

We spoke about various religious matters and they told me of their beliefs. We started with them saying a prayer. When we finished they asked ME to say a prayer. I recited one from our Qu'ran, but didn't translate it into English for their benefit. I regret this, since it involved a recital that only one God exists, Allah, and that Mohammed (s.a.w.) came as his last prophet.

I should have told them this so that they wouldn't think I had sneakily tried to convert them to my cause by an appeal to Allah!

I don't consider their Joseph Smith a Prophet. Apparently they still have prophets, one a man called Gordon B. Hinckley. They seem to believe really strongly in this. Any thoughts? After each prophet dies a new one appears. I almost mentioned Buffy The Vampire Slayer but, thankfully, I resisted.

I spoke of similarities with Islam, which intrigued that older lady. She seemed slightly perturbed that Islam's last prophet preached some time during 7th Century AD. I can only assume she noticed those same similarities and wanted to know if Islam had come after Mormonism or not.

------------------

quote:
All the boys think she's a spy

  
Jake22
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 264 (51424)
08-20-2003 6:32 PM


The skinny on Mormonism
Based on limited research and talking to Mormon friends, here is the gist of Mormonism...

god was once a man who lived on a planet. He fulfilled the requirements of salvation so he was rewarded in the afterlife with a planet to rule of his own. We all have this potential to rule our own planet in the afterlife if we're good Mormons. Once a man is a god, he has celestial sex with his Mormon wife, who he spends eternity with ruling the planet, and each time they have sex a soul is birthed for their planet. Polygamy was encouraged because a god would spend eternity with many women, and thus populate his planet faster.

BAck to Yahweh according to Mormons...The first two souls born to god were Jesus and Lucifer. God called a council of the gods to determine his plan of salvation for his planet. He decided to have one of his sons sent to be a sacrifice. Lucifer volunteered, but Jesus was picked by God, and thus began Lucifer's rebellion. Jesus was sacrificed and with a combination of belief in Jesus and being spotlessly morally, one can gain salavation, too.

You should read Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. It has some excellent info about Mormonism from a Christian point of view. It talks about how the cofounders of Mormonism denied the religion, saying it was a big hoax or something to that effect, but Joseph Smith chided and excommunicated them. There are also some interesting prophesies...Smith prophecied that there were people who lived on the moon and dressed like Quakers. When that was proved wrong, it was taken out of scriptures. Someone(Bringham young?) also prophecied that polgamy would never be made illegal in Utah. I suppose they chose statehood over prophesy fulfillment on that one.

OKay, well this is just off the top of my head. Again, I would suggest Martin's book, which gives references and such. I have no doubt that your missionary guests will deny most of this, so it may be good to brush up on the knowledge. They go through all kinds of training to expect and respond to anything you may say, so it would be good to at least know if what they are saying is actually backed by their scriptures or, moreover, by the Bible.

The religion has some wonderfuls aspects...missionary emphasis, morality, community, family, etc., but it is not christian according to the Bible, and thus by Christians (notably because of the polytheistic views).

Hope that helps.
Jake

edit: P.S. The part about becoming gods is preached less and less in the Mormon church as time goes by, and the church has reinterpretted the passages to not explicitly say this. A friend of mine raised in the Mormon church said he stopped hearing the hard core Mormon thoughts preached about 30 years ago. Since then the more "Christian" stuff has been preached. Also, he said there is much odd stuff that goes on in the temple, and anyone who goes in is sworn to secrecy. Hehe, I dunno exactly what he was talking about, but maybe it'd be worth doing some research?

[This message has been edited by Jake22, 08-20-2003]


Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2003 6:53 PM Jake22 has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 52 of 264 (51428)
08-20-2003 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Jake22
08-20-2003 6:32 PM


Re: The skinny on Mormonism
I would be very careful about trusting Martin entirely - not because there aren't many issues on which Mormonism can be challenged but because it is not unusual for Christian anti-Mormon sources to "spin" the facts giving an unreliable picture. The bit about the "cofounders" for instance sounds very dubious to me.

A better source might be the web site www.lds-mormon.com put together by a former Mormon. Everything I have seen about it suggests that it is more balanced than many pro- or anti- Mormon sources.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Jake22, posted 08-20-2003 6:32 PM Jake22 has taken no action

  
theOtter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 53 of 264 (63906)
11-02-2003 5:26 AM


Some answers (quite long)
Well, there’s been a lot of posts in this thread; some good, some bad, some downright ugly. The bottom line is that if you want to know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or any religion, for that matter), the best way is to get it straight from the horse’s mouth. There are plenty of places—both on the web and otherwise—where you can find out why someone believes something is false; this seems particularly true of The Church of Jesus Christ. However, I personally think it makes more sense to ask someone that actually knows what they’re talking about to explain it. Most often, this is someone who is affiliated with the organization in question.

I joined The Church of Jesus Christ just over 12 years ago, having grown up in a very mainstream Protestant family. My parents were understandably afraid that I was joining a “cult,” but a visit with their minister straightened them out. He informed them that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is exactly what the name implies—a Christian Church—and that they had absolutely nothing to worry about. (I truly thank God for this wonderful man, as I know of many, many others who will happily badmouth anything outside their own congregation.)

Anyway, I’d like to clear the air about some of the things I’ve seen posted on here, since it’s obvious that most people have, at best, a partial understanding.

Origins of so-called “Mormonism”
In the 1810s and ’20s, there was a huge religious fervor in New York State. Missionaries were coming from all over the place trying to gain converts to their various churches, so much that the area became known as “the burned-over district.” In the midst of all this fervor, a young boy named Joseph Smith, Jr., was very confused. Every preacher he spoke to was badmouthing all the others, so he finally gave up on them and turned to the Bible, eventually stumbling across James 1:5: “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God….” Joseph decided to do just this, and one morning in early Spring, 1820 (historians now gravitate towards March 26), went out into a grove of trees near his home and started to pray. He wanted to know which church was the true one, and had faith that God would answer him. He never expected what the answer would be…. In Joseph’s own words:

“I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!“

Through this and many other experiences, Joseph Smith, Jr., was called to be a prophet of God, just like many of the earlier prophets (including those of the Old and New Testaments) who also saw God and were called to teach others.

The Book of Mormon
A lot of people think The Book of Mormon is “The Mormon Bible.” Actually, that’s kind of silly, since Latter-day Saints believe the Bible and use it quite regularly. (My wife and I, for example, read the entire New Testament this year.) The Book of Mormon is simply another testament—another witness—that Jesus is the Christ. The Biblical prophets taught the word of God in the area of Jerusalem; at the same time, however, there were other prophets in other lands, teaching the exact same word of God. Most of these records are still lost to history, but Joseph Smith Jr. was led, by revelation, to a summary of the records of the prophets on the American continent (the golden plates mentioned by Loudmouth). He translated these plates by the power of God; when he was done, the same angel (Moroni) who gave them to him in the first place took them back. As has also been mentioned, there were eleven “official” witnesses of these plates (imagine taking that to a court of law! At least eleven people will attest to the fact that he had them!), whose written testimonies were added as an introduction to the published translation of the Book.

Probably the most important thing about “Mormonism” is a promise contained in the Book of Mormon itself, made by the last prophet of the civilization (that same Moroni who, as a resurrected being, gave Joseph the plates): if you want to know if the Book of Mormon (or anything, for that matter) is true, don’t take my word for it; ask God. He’ll let you know, just like he let me, and Joseph Smith Jr., and at least 12 million other people know. It’s a little thing called prayer, and I can testify that, done with faith, it’s not just a one-way conversation.

Some less important stuff that’s been mentioned:
“Holy Underwear”
This is probably one of the most misunderstood, ridiculed tenets of “Mormonism.” Among the ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that of the endowment, in which several covenants are made with God (eg. help other people, no extramarital sex, etc.). As part of the endowment, the individual is clothed in the garment of the holy priesthood, which serves as a reminder of the covenants we make. This in and of itself is a phenomenally deep subject, but nothing to get hung up on.

Tithing
God made this law pretty clear in the Bible; I give you 100% of what you get; give me back a tenth of that, and I’ll bless you so much you won’t know what hit you. Until the day that the general public is unselfish enough to have all things in common (like the New Testament Christians), members of Christ’s Church will live this law. As for Loudmouth’s statement that people were being sent their own tax returns with a bill from the Church, I suppose it’s possible that some bishop somewhere was instructed by revelation to do this, but I think the story is more likely fabrication than anything. How would the Church even get someone’s tax returns?

Polygamy
Again, the basic law is simple: every man has one wife, every woman has one husband. However, sometimes this just isn’t practical for the society (eg. in ancient Israel, when plural marriage was often used for the sake of procreation.
True, some (about 2%) of the nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints practiced plural marriage, but it was more of a Church calling than anything. The local bishop would receive revelation that a certain man was to take a certain woman to wife; he would then call that man and his current wife into his office and invite them to accept this calling. Often this was done for the sake of procreation, but sometimes it was simply a means of caring for the widows. Many plural wives—especially older ones—lived in completely different houses than their husbands, never even having sex with them.
Latter-day Saints also believe in obeying the law of the land, but to use their Consitutional rights to protect their own freedoms. As such, when Congress passed an act that outlawed plural marriages, the Saints fought it all the way to the Supreme Court, which finally ruled the act Constitutional in 1889. At that point, the President of the Church checked with the Lord, who confirmed that they should obey the law of the land. Consequently, the Church issued an official declaration against any and all unlawful marriages, effectively ending plural marriage.

God’s family
A_Christian cites some very interesting beliefs; unfortunately, everything he says is just a bit off the mark. Latter-day Saints do believe in a Heavenly Mother, but in a dozen years, I’ve never once heard her referred to as “Wisdom.” The doctrine is simple: every one of us—including Jehovah (Jesus Christ) and Lucifer (Satan) are spirit children of our Heavenly Father. (Was Lucifer the second-born? Maybe. We really don’t know, nor does it matter.) Our Heavenly Father’s plan was for us to come to earth, learn to make correct choices, and come back to Him. Not all of us would make it, but all would have the opportunity to do so through the atoning blood of the Savior (Jesus Christ). Satan had a different plan: he wanted everyone to be forced to do what was right (hence, no real growth) and volunteered to be the Savior himself. This in and of itself probably wasn’t a bad thing, but when our Heavenly Father made his final decision (to go with His original plan), Satan rebelled against Him and wound up being cast out, taking his followers—a third of our Heavenly Father’s children—with him. Anyway, getting back to our Heavenly Mother, she’s there, but I’m sure she does a lot more than “pump[ing] out spirit babies.” I’m guessing the reason we don’t know more about her is because so many people (ahem) degrade what little we do know.

Jesus Christ as Savior
Jesus Christ suffered in Gethsemane and died on the cross for our sins. He was resurrected from the dead so that we can also be resurrected. While it is vitally important to keep the commandments of God (doing “works”), no amount of works can ever save us. Only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ can we ever make it back to our Heavenly Father. I have read many, many teachings of many, many prophets, and I can conclusively declare that this is the only doctrine that has ever been preached by The Church of Jesus Christ. Bottom line: anyone who says that Latter-day Saints believe in anything but salvation by grace is sorely mistaken; we just believe that God asks us to do all we can, and then the atoning blood of Christ will make up the difference.

Masonry
It is a common misconception that Latter-day Saints Temple ordinances are based on Masonic rituals. While there are some similarities, any learned Jew will be happy to tell you where Freemasonry really comes from. Rabbi Isaac Wise, for example, stated that “Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end.” Much has been written on this subject, but the bottom line is this: it’s really not surprising that rituals based on God’s ancient ordinances would resemble the ones found in the modern Church of Jesus Christ.

Prophets
Comparisons to “Buffy” aside, new prophets don’t appear; they are called. In fact, at pretty much any given time, there are fifteen prophets on the earth: three in a Quorum of the First Presidency, which presides over the Church; and twelve in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who fulfill the mandate given to their Biblical predecessors to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. When the President of the Church (who, with his two counselors, comprise the First Presidency of the Church) dies, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles becomes the presiding quorum, with the president of this quorum as acting President of the Church. One the new President of the Church (traditionally the former President of the Twelve) is set apart as such, the First Presidency is reorganized, a new President of the Twelve is set apart, and a new Apostle is called to fill the resulting vacancy in the Twelve.

Prophecies
There’s plenty of people out there that will tell you that Joseph Smith Jr., Brigham Young Sr. (the second President of the Church), or any number of other people prophesied all sorts of ridiculous things. The “people on the moon” comment, for example, comes from a statement by Oliver B. Huntington, in 1892. He got the information from a journal entry he had made in 1881, in which he cited Philo Dribble. Dribble, in turn, just knew that someone once told him that Joseph made that statement in 1837. Joseph Smith himself, of course, had been dead for almost half a century and was unavailable for comment. Now, how reliable do you think that story is? The point is that these so-called “prophecies” are generally statements taken out of context (deliberately or otherwise) that have subesequently been grossly misinterpreted. Whenever this is the case, going back to the original source always proves these “prophecies” to be little more than a misunderstanding. (In this particular case, the somebody that passed the information along to Philo Dribble was probably actually remembering in 1835, when the New York Sun reported that people had been discovered on the moon; newspapers all across the nation picked up the story, eventually attributing these “moon men” with 1,000-year lifespans and “Quaker” hats.) Bottom line: if somebody tells you that somebody else—anybody else—said something weird, see if they can cite it. Generally, the answer is a resounding “no.”

The Three Witnesses
I’ll finish on this one: Jake22 states that “the cofounders of Mormonism denied the religion.” What he is almost certainly referring to in this vein is that the Three Witnesses of The Book of Mormon—Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris—all fell away from the Church over personal disagreements with the Prophet Joseph Smith. Oliver eventually came back; David and Martin did not. However, even though two of the three never came back, all three adamantly confirmed—even on their respective deathbeds—that their written testimony was true. All three maintained throughout their lives that they had in fact seen an angel, and that he had shown them the golden plates from which The Book of Mormon was translated. David and Martin each felt that Joseph had made some mistakes after that point (which he had; he never claimed to be perfect), but neither ever denied his testimony that The Book of Mormon was (and is) true.

Well, pretty lengthy response, I know, but there’s a lot to be dealt with (and much that I haven’t even touched on). If you want to know the truth about “Mormonism,” feel free to e-mail me. Better yet, check out the official web site. It’s certainly a lot more accurate than anything posted on here.

------------------
“Death is not extinguishing
the light; it is putting out
the lamp because dawn
has come.”
—Rabindranath Tagore


Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by nator, posted 11-02-2003 9:21 AM theOtter has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 54 of 264 (63923)
11-02-2003 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by theOtter
11-02-2003 5:26 AM


Re: Some answers (quite long)
quote:
The bottom line is that if you want to know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or any religion, for that matter), the best way is to get it straight from the horse?s mouth. There are plenty of places?both on the web and otherwise?where you can find out why someone believes something is false; this seems particularly true of The Church of Jesus Christ. However, I personally think it makes more sense to ask someone that actually knows what they?re talking about to explain it. Most often, this is someone who is affiliated with the organization in question.

Actually, asking someone affiliated with a particular church about their church is only going to give you one side of a many-sided picture.

For instance, since you are ovbiously a devotee of your own religion, it is basically impossible for you to be an objective observer. I mean, your post was a nice apologetic, but it certainly spins history to be more favorable towards the mormons.

Mormons, in particular, are very, very eager to convert new members, so they are not likely to tell you anything negative or wierd or critical of their own organisation.

The LDS church has a formidable public relations and advertising image as wholesome, family-oriented, and really, really nice.

That is not the whole history nor reality of the Mormons.

Racism, homophobia and misogyny are a big part of Mormon history and current beliefs, for example.

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-02-2003]

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-02-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by theOtter, posted 11-02-2003 5:26 AM theOtter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by theOtter, posted 11-02-2003 4:32 PM nator has replied

  
theOtter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 55 of 264 (63994)
11-02-2003 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by nator
11-02-2003 9:21 AM


Re: Some answers (quite long)
quote:
Racism, homophobia and misogyny are a big part of Mormon history and current beliefs, for example.
Well, not to be argumentative, but if these things have or have ever had any part in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, twelve years of studying both LDS and non-LDS writings have never brought any of them to light. On racism, for example: in the first half of the nineteenth century, most churches throughout the United States of American were segregated along white/black lines. The Church of Jesus Christ, however, has never been. In fact, Joseph Smith Jr. once sold his favorite horse to buy the freedom of a slave he had never even met; he also ran as a third-party candidate in the 1844 Presidential election (without any real hopes of winning, of course) on an anti-slavery platform. Do these sound like the actions of a racist man, much less the leader of a racist organization?

The racism I suppose you are citing is that, until 1978, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints taught that the descendants of Cain were not to be ordained to the Priesthood. They could be baptized, confirmed, and enjoy full fellowship in the Church and full salvation in the kingdom of God, but they were not to hold the Priesthood until God directed otherwise (which happened in 1978). This shouldn’t be surprising, since in the Bible, only the sons of Aaron were to be given the Priesthood for a time. Then during Christ’s mortal ministry, God directed that the Priesthood was to be extended to all worthy males (except, presumably, the descendants of Cain). There’s nothing racist about this; it’s simply a matter of what God wants, when God wants it. Blacks have always been able to receive the Priesthood. Elijah Abel, for example, was the first black ordained in this dispensation—and that happened in 1836, when the Church itself was just barely fully organized! It’s just that the descendants of Cain—many of whom were black—were not to be ordained. (I agree, by the way, that several prominent members of the Church have been very racist; people are imperfect. However, the views of a few—even a very prominent few—should not be construed to be those of the whole.)

As for homophobia, I can only assume you base this on our teaching that homosexuality is a sin. Well, if that’s what it means to be homophobic, then The Church of Jesus Christ is guilty as charged. However, my understanding of homophobia is a fear and/or hatred of those who practice homosexuality. The Church certainly does not practice this. Those who practice homosexuality are more than welcome to come to Church, to worship with us, etc., etc., etc.. However, if one wants to be baptized, take the Sacrament, go to the Temple, etc., that person must truly and fully repent of their sins. That’s not homophobia; that’s Christianity. (Again, I’m sure that there are quite a few members of the Church that are quite homophobic; this is bound to happen in any large organization. But again, the views of a few are just that: their own views, for which they will be held accountable when they stand before the Lord in the Day of Judgment.)

Misogyny: I can’t even imagine where this one came from. People always talk about the Church giving up polygamy in order for Utah to become a state, but did you know they also had to give up women’s rights? As early as the 1850s, all citizens of Utah—including women—were equal before the law. They had the right to own property, the right to hold a job, and even the right to vote. In fact, if you look at the literature of the late nineteenth century, you’ll find many books (written by those outside the Church) about how Latter-day Saint men couldn’t keep their women in their place. Heck, five of the first ten female doctors in the United States of America were Latter-day Saints! If anybody was misogynistic, it was the government of the good old U. S. of A.: Utah women were allowed to vote right up until the 1890s, when Utah became a state and they lost that right. Even then, they still had the right to vote in the Church.

Well, I’ve devoted more time to this than I wanted to, so let me finish up with this: I fully recognize that there are two sides to every story, and I see nothing wrong with “spinning history” in my own favor if everyone else on this board seems bent on spinning it against me. However, I think it’s very dangerous to assume that anyone can be a completely objective observer. There’s plenty of people out there trying their darnedest to destroy The Church of Jesus Christ, and while I don’t agree with what they’re saying, I will defend to the death their right to say it. If there’s one thing I can’t stand, though, it’s people trying to tell me what my Church—and by extension, I—believe. You may believe whatever you want to believe, but when you try to tell me what I believe, you’d better be ready for a lambasting in return.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the church of Jesus Christ. I know this. I, like countless millions of others, have asked God, and He’s confirmed it on more occasions that I could ever begin to number. If you want to know the truth, don’t ask your preacher, don’t ask your minister, don’t ask your LDS friends, don’t even ask me. Ask God. He’ll tell you, the same way he told me.

And please don’t even try to tell me that I don’t know something just because you don’t know it. That’s about as valid as me claiming the sun doesn’t exist because I can’t see it at the moment. ;-)

------------------
“Death is not extinguishing
the light; it is putting out
the lamp because dawn
has come.”
—Rabindranath Tagore


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by nator, posted 11-02-2003 9:21 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2003 4:40 PM theOtter has replied
 Message 57 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2003 4:44 PM theOtter has taken no action
 Message 59 by nator, posted 11-03-2003 8:01 AM theOtter has replied
 Message 62 by nator, posted 11-03-2003 8:36 AM theOtter has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 56 of 264 (63997)
11-02-2003 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by theOtter
11-02-2003 4:32 PM


Re: Some answers (quite long)
Just a point, but if you don't know that the LDS Church banned Blacks banned from the priesthood for a good part of their history, then that illustrates the point that relying solely on official sources is questionable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by theOtter, posted 11-02-2003 4:32 PM theOtter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by theOtter, posted 11-03-2003 6:44 AM PaulK has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 695 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 57 of 264 (64001)
11-02-2003 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by theOtter
11-02-2003 4:32 PM


How do you know who the decendants of Cain are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by theOtter, posted 11-02-2003 4:32 PM theOtter has taken no action

  
theOtter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 58 of 264 (64098)
11-03-2003 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
11-02-2003 4:40 PM


Re: Some answers (quite long)
quote:
Just a point, but if you don't know that the LDS Church banned Blacks banned from the priesthood for a good part of their history, then that illustrates the point that relying solely on official sources is questionable.
Actually, I used to believe the same thing—that the Church banned blacks from the Priesthood for a time, and most “official” sources seem to indicate this. However, I’ve never relied solely on official publications. The Indiana University library (one of the largest academic libraries in the nation) has an entire bookshelf on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the great majority of them are from non-LDS authors. I’ve read quite a few books on that shelf—none of which were written by members of the Church—including at least two that dealt exclusively with blacks and the Priesthood (sorry, don’t remember the titles; it’s been a few years). The fact of the matter is that, as I said in my last post, it is an historical fallacy to say that blacks as a race were banned from the Priesthood. Many blacks were denied the Priesthood because they were of the wrong lineage (eg. descended from Cain), but so were any whites that came from that lineage. It’s just that there is a huge overlap between African-Americans and the descendants of Cain (in other words, very few people are one or the other; the great majority of us are either neither or both), so it’s easy to miss the distinction.

quote:
How do you know who the decendants of Cain are?
Another great question. Among the most important tenets of The Church of Jesus Christ is that any one of us can receive revelation for those over whom we preside. You can receive revelation for you; I can receive revelation for me; PaulK can receive revelation for PaulK. Those who are head of a given family can receive revelation for that family. A bishop can receive revelation for the ward over which he is called to preside. The list goes on and on, until you finally get to the President of the Church, who is a guy just like anybody else who just happens to have been called to preside over (and therefore, receive revelation for) the entire Earth for a while.

In any given ward, it is the bishop’s responsibility to prayerfully determine who is to hold what calling. It is up to each bishop to determine when (and if) each member of his ward is to hold the Aaronic Priesthood, and what calling in said Priesthood they are to hold at any given time. Before the revelation of 1978, this including determining—hopefully through revelation—descendancy from Cain. Do bishops make mistakes? Of course they do. They’re only human, just like the rest of us. But hopefully, each one is spiritually in tune enough to not screw up such a major decision.

------------------
“Death is not extinguishing
the light; it is putting out
the lamp because dawn
has come.”
—Rabindranath Tagore


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2003 4:40 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by NosyNed, posted 11-03-2003 9:42 AM theOtter has taken no action
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 11-03-2003 12:23 PM theOtter has replied
 Message 70 by PaulK, posted 11-03-2003 4:00 PM theOtter has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 264 (64108)
11-03-2003 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by theOtter
11-02-2003 4:32 PM


Re: Some answers (quite long)
[/quote]They could be baptized, confirmed, and enjoy full fellowship in the Church and full salvation in the kingdom of God, but they were not to hold the Priesthood until God directed otherwise (which happened in 1978).[/quote]

Don't you think it's a bit naieve to look at these kinds of big changes to LDS doctrine as Godly "directions" when they "just happen" to coincide with strong political or social pressure which would make the church look bad (racist) or break the law (plural marriage)?

quote:
I agree, by the way, that several prominent members of the Church have been very racist; people are imperfect. However, the views of a few?even a very prominent few?should not be construed to be those of the whole.

...except they can be viewed as a whole if the racist is the leader of the entire organization, wouldn't you say? There's lots of racist instructional materials for Mormons from just a few decades ago. Read it here:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml

You can't just shrug it off as a "few prominent people were racist."

As for misogyny, let me ask you a question.

How many female church officials are there that have general authority similar to, and over, males?

quote:
If you want to know the truth, don?t ask your preacher, don?t ask your minister, don?t ask your LDS friends, don?t even ask me. Ask God. He?ll tell you, the same way he told me.

I did ask God. Nothing happened.

quote:
And please don?t even try to tell me that I don?t know something just because you don?t know it. That?s about as valid as me claiming the sun doesn?t exist because I can?t see it at the moment.

Actually, that's not a valid comparison.

The sun is observable by anyone. I believe that the sun exists through thousands of repeated experiences of seeing it, feeling it's warmth, etc.

By comparison, each and every person's experience and perception of religion or the supernatural is utterly and completely inside their own head.

I do accept that you believe that certain things are true but you believe them in spite of evidence. Belief without evidence is called "faith", and you are entitled to it.

Just don't expect anyone who requires evidence to buy it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by theOtter, posted 11-02-2003 4:32 PM theOtter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by theOtter, posted 11-03-2003 12:25 PM nator has taken no action

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 264 (64110)
11-03-2003 8:11 AM


You know what's creepy, Otter?

That LDS people, when challenged, often say the same thing like they have been coached ahead of time.

I have spoken to several mormon people about racism and homophobia, and they have all used the, "surely some people in the Church will hold these views; it would be expected in any large organisation." line.

I have spoken to several mormon women about the fact that no women can attain preisthood or any authority in the Church, and they all say exactly the same thing, which is, "I wouldn't want to be a priest!"

It's just scary that you are all taught what to say, and that you all learn it so well and don't seem to even think anything you aren't supposed to think, and that you all say very nearly the exact same words!

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-03-2003]


Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by mike the wiz, posted 11-03-2003 8:22 AM nator has taken no action

  
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