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Author Topic:   Divinity of Jesus
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 241 of 517 (514757)
07-12-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Peg
07-12-2009 2:23 AM


Re: Trinity
Ok, I find this very interesting, but I'm a bit mixed up haha
Peg, are you proposing that christianity is polytheistic ?? As in Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all seperate individuals, but all Gods ?
Or that there is one God, and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not to be viewed as God ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 2:23 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 6:28 AM slevesque has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 242 of 517 (514759)
07-12-2009 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by slevesque
07-12-2009 5:14 AM


Re: Trinity
sevesque writes:
Or that there is one God, and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not to be viewed as God ?
this is precisely what the bible teaches.
think about it. jesus was a Jew bought up on the Hebrew scriptures. Its from these very scritpures where the basis of his teachings were from.
The Hebrew scriptures present a monotheistic God, he had his own distinct name, he was presented as the Almighty Creator who was to be worshiped as 'one' God above all others.
This is the same God that Jesus taught his followers to pray to and he called him 'OUR FATHER'. He didnt say 'YOUR' father, so as not to include himself in the admonition, but Jesus clearly included himself when he said 'OUR' Father. This shows that Jesus viewed God as his own father, not as himself, but as a distinct and greater being them himself.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by slevesque, posted 07-12-2009 5:14 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-12-2009 9:32 AM Peg has replied
 Message 246 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-12-2009 11:56 AM Peg has replied
 Message 247 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 1:45 AM Peg has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 243 of 517 (514762)
07-12-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Peg
07-12-2009 6:28 AM


Re: Trinity
Peg writes:
The Hebrew scriptures present a monotheistic God, he had his own distinct name, he was presented as the Almighty Creator who was to be worshiped as 'one' God above all others.
This is the same God that Jesus taught his followers to pray to and he called him 'OUR FATHER'. He didnt say 'YOUR' father, so as not to include himself in the admonition, but Jesus clearly included himself when he said 'OUR' Father. This shows that Jesus viewed God as his own father, not as himself, but as a distinct and greater being them himself.
This Christian monotheistic belief sounds almost the same as what the LDS (Mormons) believe. They also believe Lucifer is a brother of Jesus and God as there father.
So Peg, does this mean that 95% of Christians are really not true believers since they believe in the triune nature of God? How does this work into your monotheistic belief in God and salvation? Just curious.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 6:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by cavediver, posted 07-12-2009 9:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 248 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:03 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 244 of 517 (514763)
07-12-2009 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by DevilsAdvocate
07-12-2009 9:32 AM


Re: Trinity
This Christian monotheistic belief sounds almost the same as what the LDS (Mormons) believe.
Probably more similar to JWs, Christadelphians, and other more "conventional" Christian sects. The trinity seems often to be one of first beliefs to go, not surprising given its remarkably shallow support from the NT. I was never convinced of it myself, whilst an evangelical Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-12-2009 9:32 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 517 (514767)
07-12-2009 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Peg
07-12-2009 2:23 AM


Re: Trinity
kelly shows how these early "theologians" adapted primitive Bible-based Christianity to greek philosophical ideas.
Are you saying you don't believe that God is of a triune nature? If so, that seems an odd stance for a professed Christian.
I'm not even a Christian but I think there is ample justification to assume that the trinitarian concept was not later inserted. There was never a word describing it, but John and Paul clearly speak about the concept, no?
Was the concept of 1 God of 3 characteristics borrowed from earlier Greek mythology? Sure, that could be the case. But what I am saying is that the concept of the trinity can be found within the bible.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 2:23 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:17 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 517 (514768)
07-12-2009 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Peg
07-12-2009 6:28 AM


Re: Trinity
Jesus viewed God as his own father, not as himself, but as a distinct and greater being them himself.
"I and the Father are one."
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God cameand the Scripture cannot be broken what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 6:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:30 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 247 of 517 (514801)
07-13-2009 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Peg
07-12-2009 6:28 AM


Re: Trinity
OKok
But if Jesus is just a normal human, why did God call him his son ? (this is my beloved son, etc. during his baptiscim)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 6:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:43 AM slevesque has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 248 of 517 (514803)
07-13-2009 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by DevilsAdvocate
07-12-2009 9:32 AM


Re: Trinity
DevilsAdvocate writes:
This Christian monotheistic belief sounds almost the same as what the LDS (Mormons) believe. They also believe Lucifer is a brother of Jesus and God as there father.
It is similar yes. However Lucifer is not actually referng to satan. The name only occurs once in the bible at Isaiah 14:12. The hebrew word translated as Lucifer in the KJV literllay means "shining one," an its occurance is said to be a "proverbial saying against the king of Babylon."
What shows that the description is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is seen by the statement: "Down to Sheol you will be brought."
Now Sheol is the common grave of mankind, its not a place where spirits would ever be buried for they have no physical body.
Satan is not named in the bible, however he was most definitely one of Jesus brothers, as are the rest of the angelic spirits.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So Peg, does this mean that 95% of Christians are really not true believers since they believe in the triune nature of God? How does this work into your monotheistic belief in God and salvation? Just curious.
I wouldnt say they are not true believers. Its more a question of accurate knowledge.
God expects all of us to make sure our beliefs are accurate and he expects us to study these things for ourselves. If we blindly go along to church and never question anything then how do we know that what we are being taught is the truth?
When you look at the history of the church there are many inconsistencies to be found and there is only one reason why they dont recognize them...they dont read the bible. The church does not teach the bible, its more focused on its own doctrines and traditions.
Its no different today then when the relgious leaders of Jesus day were teaching the Oral laws rather then the Mosaic laws. But we each have a responsibility to make sure our church is teaching the right thing...and if its not, get out.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-12-2009 9:32 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-13-2009 10:34 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 249 of 517 (514804)
07-13-2009 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Hyroglyphx
07-12-2009 11:51 AM


Re: Trinity
Hyroglyphx writes:
I'm not even a Christian but I think there is ample justification to assume that the trinitarian concept was not later inserted. There was never a word describing it, but John and Paul clearly speak about the concept, no?
no.
Their writings always spoke of Jesus and God as separate individuals. We know that God has his own distinct name (Jehovah) and Jesus was always called his 'Son'
If you are trying to teach that God and Jesus are one in the same, and are on the same level, and are of the same essence, why would you call one the Father and one the Son?
Take the trinity teaching away for a moment and think about that...what do you think the 'Son' and 'Father' implies in terms of the relationship between the two?
What does it tell you about the position & authority, relative to each other?
Hyroglyphx writes:
Was the concept of 1 God of 3 characteristics borrowed from earlier Greek mythology? Sure, that could be the case. But what I am saying is that the concept of the trinity can be found within the bible.
thats probably because the church's have conditioned us to believe this. They are the authority and only they know how to explain the unexplainable.
Have you ever wondered why its called the great 'mystery'?
Its a mystery because the bible does not explain it. The church has twisted a few scriptures to make them appear that they are explaining the trinity but when you examine them closely, and take other scriptures into account, it becomes clear that they do not mean what the church claims they mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-12-2009 11:51 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2009 5:29 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 250 of 517 (514805)
07-13-2009 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Hyroglyphx
07-12-2009 11:56 AM


Re: Trinity
Indeed, Jesus and the Father were one...'In Purpose'
However, in the argument that followed between Jesus and the Jews he proved that he had by no means said that he was God. Jesus said at
John 10:36 "I said, I am the Son of God."
The jews cracked it big time with him becuase he said he was from the 'realms above', which he was. He was a powerful angelic son of God in heaven and was sent to the earth to perform a duty.
So when the jews heard him say he was not from this world, they assumed he was saying that he was a god of some sort. He corrected them by saying "I said, I am the Son of God"
He never claimed to be God. Read this carefully - John 8:18-27...
quote:
19Therefore they went on to say to him: "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered: "YOU know neither me nor my Father. If YOU did know me, YOU would know my Father also." ...
21Hence he said to them again: "I am going away, and YOU will look for me, and yet YOU will die in YOUR sin. Where I am going YOU cannot come."
22Therefore the Jews began to say: "He will not kill himself, will he? Because he says, ‘Where I am going YOU cannot come.’"
23So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below (earth); I am from the realms above (heaven). YOU are from this world; I am not from this world. 24Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins."
(note jesus is becoming tired of them by this stage, he's performed miracles and raised the dead as an evidence of who he was, the messiah, and yet they still question him about who he is)
25Therefore they began to say to him: "Who are you?" Jesus said to them: "Why am I even speaking to YOU at all? 26I have many things to speak concerning YOU and to pass judgment upon. As a matter of fact, he that sent me is true, and the very things I heard from him I am speaking in the world."
27They did not grasp that he was talking to them about the Father
does this sound like a man who claimed to be God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-12-2009 11:56 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:04 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 251 of 517 (514806)
07-13-2009 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by slevesque
07-13-2009 1:45 AM


Re: Trinity
slevesque writes:
But if Jesus is just a normal human, why did God call him his son ? (this is my beloved son, etc. during his baptiscim)
He was more then human, he existed as an angelic son of God beforehand
He had a prehuman existence. The apostles came to understand this. Paul described Jesus as "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)
Also John acknowledged his prehuman role in creation: "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." (John 1:3)
Its also why John said that Jesus was 'divine' because he was more then just a human, he came from the heavens and when he had completed his job, he returned there as a powerful spirit again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 1:45 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:06 AM Peg has replied
 Message 254 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:12 AM Peg has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 252 of 517 (514808)
07-13-2009 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Peg
07-13-2009 3:30 AM


Re: Trinity
Claiming to be God in Israel in those days is equal to a suicide. Because Jesus didn't claim it during his ministry doesn't mean it is not true.
Also, there are many things that Jesus said that are not recorded in the gospels.
But we know his disciples were there, and heard everything. How can you account for what John says in the opening chapter of his gospel ? I mean, just the verse verses seems to cast doubt in my mind about your opinion that because Jesus sometimes describes his relationship with God as in a two individual perspective, it means that he isn't God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (here, two individual perspective: God and The Word), and the Word was God (hop, here there is a one individual perspective: The Word was God). He was with God in the beginning
John in the same verse, refers to the relationship between God and 'The Word' in a two-individual perspective and a one-individual perspective. Can it be possible that John was so dichotomic to do this, in the SAME verse ? I doubt it.
The nature of God-TheSon-TheHolySpirit is freakin' almost impossible to understand. How can there be three distinct indivuals, but all the same God ? I've abandonned trying to answer that question. All I do know is that this IS the case, because that in the Bible, both a multiple-individual approach and a one-individual approach is used (and sometimes in the same verse ...)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:30 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 4:32 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 253 of 517 (514809)
07-13-2009 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Peg
07-13-2009 3:43 AM


Re: Trinity
Didn't he have to be human to die for the sins of Humanity ??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:43 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:54 AM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 254 of 517 (514810)
07-13-2009 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Peg
07-13-2009 3:43 AM


Re: Trinity
Ok trick question here:
If Jesus is not God, than he had a beginning, and so he 'came into existence'.
How then can 'all things came into existence through him' ? (as per John 1:3)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:43 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:03 AM slevesque has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 255 of 517 (514812)
07-13-2009 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by slevesque
07-13-2009 4:04 AM


Re: Trinity
slevesque writes:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (here, two individual perspective: God and The Word), and the Word was God (hop, here there is a one individual perspective: The Word was God). He was with God in the beginning
John in the same verse, refers to the relationship between God and 'The Word' in a two-individual perspective and a one-individual perspective. Can it be possible that John was so dichotomic to do this, in the SAME verse ? I doubt it.
The nature of God-TheSon-TheHolySpirit is freakin' almost impossible to understand. How can there be three distinct indivuals, but all the same God ? I've abandonned trying to answer that question. All I do know is that this IS the case, because that in the Bible, both a multiple-individual approach and a one-individual approach is used (and sometimes in the same verse ...)
how do you know that its not the translator who got it wrong in John1:1?
Do you know much about Koine greek? I recently discussed this verse in another thread with Jaywill in the Christian Laws thread (Page 14 Msg 205).
I'll give you some translators who wrote it differently
quote:
and the word was a god
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London. 1808
and a god was the Word
The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.1864
and the Word was divine
The BibleAn American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.1935
and the Word was a god
New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures,
Brooklyn. WT Society 1950
and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz,Gttingen, Germany.1975
and godlike sort was the Logos
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Johannes Schneider,Berlin.1978
and a god was the Logos
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Jrgen Becker, Wrzburg, Germany.1979
*******************************************
Now in john 1:1 the literal verse reads (definite article HO & TON)
1.EN_____ARKHEI____ __EN______HO___ __LOGOS,___KAI__ _HO_ _LOGOS
2.IN___BEGINNING ____WAS_____ THE____ WORD,___ AND__ _THE__ _WORD
3.EN_____PROS___TON_THN,__________KAI____THS___EN___HO__ _LOGOS.
4.WAS____WITH___THE_GOD,__________AND____GOD___WAS__THE_ _WORD.
5.HOUTOS_____EN_______EN_____ARKHEI _____PROS____ TON_THN.
6.THIS ______WAS_____IN_____BEGINNING____WITH_____THE_GOD.
Notice in line 3. the word was with 'TON THN' which means the word was with THE GOD.
Notice in line 4. 'and God was the word'
there is a difference between the occurrence of 'THE GOD' in line 3. The fact that John used the definite article in line 3 shows that 'THE GOD' is referring to a specific individual. But in line 4 when he says that 'the word was god' he does not include a definite article before god, which means the word 'god' in line 4 is an adjective rather then a noun. Its a descriptive word identifying the nature of Jesus.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:04 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:51 AM Peg has replied

  
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