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Author Topic:   Divinity of Jesus
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 256 of 517 (514813)
07-13-2009 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Peg
07-13-2009 4:32 AM


Re: Trinity
I sure don't know a lot about Koine Greek hh. But I understand your point (although you have to agree that the vast majority of translations write that the word was God (John; NIV - The Word Became Flesh - In the - Bible Gateway; even the french translations say this)
But if Jesus is not God, but is still divine, doesn't this make him like a 'lesser God' ? Where does that put him in regards to God, angels, demons, humans ? Less then God, but more then angels ? Are angels considered divine also ??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 4:32 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:16 AM slevesque has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 257 of 517 (514814)
07-13-2009 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by slevesque
07-13-2009 4:12 AM


Re: Trinity
slevesque writes:
Ok trick question here:
If Jesus is not God, than he had a beginning, and so he 'came into existence'.
How then can 'all things came into existence through him' ? (as per John 1:3)
the beauty of the bible is that there are no tricks or mysteries to it.
John repeatedly describes Jesus as the only-begotten Son of God. He says that as the Logos, or Word, "this one was in the beginning with God," even "before the world was." and also as you say, all things "came into existence thru him and for him and without him nothing came into existence"
'Only begotten' means that Jesus was the only direct creation, of any other living being, by God himself. All other 'sons' were created by Jesus, not God...this is why Jesus is called the 'only begotten son'. He was the only living being directly created by God.
Now look at what Proverbs says
quote:
Proverbs 8:22"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ...27When he prepared the heavens I was there...30then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
The one speaking here is 'The Word' or the 'Logos' whom John identifies as Jesus.
Jesus was with God in the beginning and all things came into existence by him because he became 'the master worker'
What this means is that the Jesus was working along side his Father in the creation. Jesus was like an apprentice under his Fathers guidance and God taught Jesus and directed him in what and how to create.
This is why Jesus was the perfect one to send as the savior because, as proverbs says 'i was especially fond of the sons of man'.
See, no tricks, no mysteries.
God created a being in his likeness, then that one created all other things. He came to earth to perform a sacred duty, then he returned to be at his fathers right hand again awaiting further direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:12 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 5:12 AM Peg has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 258 of 517 (514815)
07-13-2009 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Peg
07-13-2009 5:03 AM


Re: Trinity
OK
And where does the Holy Spirit fit in all this ??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:03 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:33 AM slevesque has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 259 of 517 (514816)
07-13-2009 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by slevesque
07-13-2009 4:51 AM


Re: Trinity
slevesque writes:
But if Jesus is not God, but is still divine, doesn't this make him like a 'lesser God' ? Where does that put him in regards to God, angels, demons, humans ? Less then God, but more then angels ? Are angels considered divine also ??
Yes, he is a lesser god. He is not God Almighty.
The word god in hebrew actually means 'mighty one' so if you think of the power that angels have, you would have to agree that they are mighty ones....gods. But again they are not the 'Almighty God'
And remember that even satan is called a god, im sure you wouldnt conclude that he is also one in the same witb Jesus and Jehovah.
This just shows that being called a 'god' does not mean that one has to be the Almighty God. Just as we have stations and ranks among people on earth, so do the Angels have stations and ranks among them. Jesus is said the be the foremost 'cheif' of all the angels. But never is he spoken of as having any authority over the 'Almighty God'
rather it is Jesus who is 'subject' to that one. 1Corintians 15:28 "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
The purpose of Jesus coming is to eventually bring the human race back into harmony with God. Right now we are alienated, but there will come a time in the future when Jesus role will come to is completion and all humans will again be reconciled to God again as perfect humans under Gods authority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:51 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 5:20 AM Peg has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 260 of 517 (514817)
07-13-2009 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Peg
07-13-2009 5:16 AM


Re: Trinity
So is christianity monotheistic or polytheistic ???????????????????
I'm freakin mixed up right now as to the implications of the rejections of the 'trinity' as a true reality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:16 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:43 AM slevesque has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 261 of 517 (514818)
07-13-2009 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by slevesque
07-13-2009 5:12 AM


Re: Trinity
slevesque writes:
OK
And where does the Holy Spirit fit in all this ??
well the holy spirit is not a person, its Gods power or force. Its what he uses to accomplish things.
the greek word pneu`ma, translated as 'spirit' means "breathe" or "blow" (Hebrew ru`ach) And it can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures or one's spirit.
Now when it comes from God, then it can be said to be 'holy' because God is holy.
In the bible, the majority of occurrences of ru'ach and pneu'ma relate to God's spirit or his active force...for instance in Genesis 1:2 "the spirit of God [ru'ach] was moving over the face of the waters." KJV
So in this sense, Gods spirit is his 'power' Although it can be used by God in however he chooses. It was this power that he gave to Jesus to perform miracles for instance.
It was also this power that 'filled' the apostles with understanding and the ability to speak in different languages/tongues at Pentecost. The spirit filled the room and gave them powers they did not previously have.
So holy spirit is the force from God that allows his purpose to be fulfilled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 5:12 AM slevesque has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 262 of 517 (514819)
07-13-2009 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by slevesque
07-13-2009 5:20 AM


Re: Trinity
slevesque writes:
So is christianity monotheistic or polytheistic ???????????????????
I'm freakin mixed up right now as to the implications of the rejections of the 'trinity' as a true reality
its monotheistic and polytheistic!
Now i'm being tricky lol
Ok, here it is....
It is monotheistic with regard to 'worship' because we are told to only worship the One God, the Almighty, The Creator.
but its polytheisitic in the sense that it acknowledges that there are other 'gods'.... such as Jesus, Angels, Satan, Demons.... in relation to us, these are all gods (mighty ones). But they are not to be worshiped the same way we worship the Almighty God.
Did you read what happened to the Apostle John when he fell down at the feet of the Angel who was giving him the visions of revelation....
Revelation 19:9And he tells me... "These are the true sayings of God." 10At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: "Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God!"
So the Angel who gave John the revelation, openly says that he was not to be worshiped, nor did he say that Jesus was to be worshiped....he says 'Worship God'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 5:20 AM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 07-13-2009 10:06 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 263 of 517 (514820)
07-13-2009 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by slevesque
07-13-2009 4:06 AM


Re: Trinity
sorry i missed this
slevesque writes:
Didn't he have to be human to die for the sins of Humanity ??
Yes he did and thats why God transferred his life to the womb of mary.
I do find it strange that most people readily accept the idea that the all powerful Creator, could bundle himself up, with all the power he possesses, into a tiny human embryo and die and resurrect himself,
yet too hard to believe that the life of one of his spirit children could be transfered to the womb of a woman to be born as a human.

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 Message 253 by slevesque, posted 07-13-2009 4:06 AM slevesque has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 264 of 517 (514842)
07-13-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Peg
07-12-2009 2:01 AM


Father, Son and Spirit are clearly shown in Acts 2:32-38 for those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to those who are being drawn to salvation in Christ Jesus. Since Jesus has been made both Lord and Christ as a result of what happened at Pentecost in Acts 2, let's look at what happened in Acts 13:
32 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers,
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, `YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'
34 "As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: `I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'
35 "Therefore He also says in another Psalm, `YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'
When Jesus declared in John 3:16 that "God so loved the world that He gave gave His only begotten Son," Jesus was referring to His resurrection, not to His incarnation birth.
When one rejects the incarnation deity of Jesus, His atoning death on the cross for our sins, His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father as Lord, then one is left with nothing but a false gospel, as are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

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 Message 239 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 2:01 AM Peg has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 265 of 517 (514844)
07-13-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Peg
07-13-2009 5:43 AM


Re: Trinity
but its polytheisitic in the sense that it acknowledges that there are other 'gods'.... such as Jesus, Angels, Satan, Demons.... in relation to us, these are all gods (mighty ones). But they are not to be worshiped the same way we worship the Almighty God.
Who does "us" refer to in First Corinthians 8:6 - "Yet to us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ ...".
If you have many gods which is the case:
1.) You are not a part of this "us".
2.) Paul is mistaken and the "us" has more than one God.
Did you read what happened to the Apostle John when he fell down at the feet of the Angel who was giving him the visions of revelation....
In both cases John was overcome by the revelation, IMO, of the eventual victory the saints of God would have under Christ and against all the enemies of God.
I think what overwhelmed John was the total vindication and victory of the church.
Notice though that Christ did receive virtual worship on at least nine occasions in which no rebuke was given to the worshippers.
1.) The healed leper worshipped Him (Matt. 8:2)
2.) The ruler knelt before Him with his petition (Matt. 9:18)
3.) After stilling the storm, the disciples worshipped Him (Matt. 14:33)
4.) The Canaanite woman bowed before Jesus in prayer (Matt. 15:25)
5.) So did the mother of the sons of Zebedee (Matt. 20:20)
6.) Just before His gospel commission "they worshipped Him" (Matt.28:17).
7.) The women who had just been at the tomb "took hold of His feet and worshipped Him" (Matt.28:9)
8.) The demoniac from Gerasenes saw him from afar, "he ran and worshipped Him" (Mark 5:6)
9.) The blind man whom Jesus healed said "Lord, I beleive; and he worshipped Him" (John 9:38)
In the case of Thomas declaring that Jesus was His Lord and His God, Jesus even elicited worship from the disciples (John 20:28). He did not rebuke Thomas for this statement. Rather He declared that those who did not see but also beleived were blessed.
I certainly intend to enjoy Jesus in worship. He is also my Lord and my God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 5:43 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 266 of 517 (514846)
07-13-2009 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Peg
07-13-2009 3:03 AM


Re: Trinity
Peg writes:
Satan is not named in the bible, however he was most definitely one of Jesus brothers, as are the rest of the angelic spirits.
So you are a LDS or JW I assume. They are the only religious sects I know that believes Satan and Jesus are brothers.
Am I correct on this? If not what Christian denomination/sect to you belong to? Just curious.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:03 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:28 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 267 of 517 (514854)
07-13-2009 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jaywill
07-13-2009 10:06 AM


Re: Trinity
Thanks for the exchange.
Hope things are well ...
brutha jay writes:
sista Peg writes:
but its polytheisitic in the sense that it acknowledges that there are other 'gods'.... such as Jesus, Angels, Satan, Demons.... in relation to us, these are all gods (mighty ones). But they are not to be worshiped the same way we worship the Almighty God.
Who does "us" refer to in First Corinthians 8:6 .....
lol - is this a trick question?! The 'us' appears to be in reference to all those who had decided to become involved within uncle Paul's unique brand of Yuhdaism that he, by way of personal renovation and casting aside of strongholds - otherwise known as dogmas & doctrines, had come to understand through his time and contemplation within scriptures and such.
"Yet to us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ ...".
If you have many gods which is the case:
1.) You are not a part of this "us".
2.) Paul is mistaken and the "us" has more than one God.
This verse appears to be another fine passage attached to the memory of uncle Paul that may effectively destabilize any already weak linked man-god theories, in the fashion of Rome's traditional establishment of such, as well as, any dubious hybrid three-in-one godhead theories that 'coincidentally' embed and overlay themselves within the conceptualizations of ancient Babylonia. Uncle Paul precedes the verse by saying, 'If after all there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords) ...'.
There is no mention of the Ruach HaKodesh as the 'third person' of any trinity in this verse where we are told, according to Paul himself, that although there are many lords & masters, many gods and also many 'so-called' gods, there is but only One God - the Father - and that the man who has been Anointed as the newest and most choice Son of God is the only Master - or 'disposer of a thing', to the Father's Way, and that man is indeed, we are told, Yeshua HaMashiach.
What point have many been led to believe uncle Paul is attempting to establish here?
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 07-13-2009 10:06 AM jaywill has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 268 of 517 (514875)
07-13-2009 4:53 PM


The Divinity of Jesus
All sin is first and formost sin against a righteous and holy God. We as humans can forgive others when they sin against us, but that does not relieve sinners of their sin before God. Sin requires faith, repentance and confession to God. Jesus showed in these verses in Luke 5 that He had power on earth to forgive sin:
20 Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"
22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
23 "Which is easier, to say, `Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, `Get up and walk'?
24 "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."
25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 517 (514880)
07-13-2009 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Peg
07-13-2009 3:17 AM


Re: Trinity
If you are trying to teach that God and Jesus are one in the same, and are on the same level, and are of the same essence, why would you call one the Father and one the Son?
"in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." -Collosains 2:2
Take the trinity teaching away for a moment and think about that...what do you think the 'Son' and 'Father' implies in terms of the relationship between the two?
Well then let me ask you what the Holy Spirit is then? Is that a separate entity too?
Its a mystery because the bible does not explain it. The church has twisted a few scriptures to make them appear that they are explaining the trinity but when you examine them closely, and take other scriptures into account, it becomes clear that they do not mean what the church claims they mean.
For what purpose?
I think both arguments make good claims. But I don't think the concept of the trinity being found in the bible to be outlandish... Maybe in actuality, yes, but not that some people interpreted it.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 3:17 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 270 of 517 (514906)
07-13-2009 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by DevilsAdvocate
07-13-2009 10:34 AM


Re: Trinity
In saying that Satan is one of Jesus brothers, I should make clear what i mean by that.
Look at this verse from Ezekiel 28:11-19 (this is a prophecy about the destruction of the king of Tyre if you read it in full, but some aspects of this prophecy shed light on an angel/cherub who went down the wrong path)
quote:
. 13In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′olite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
16'Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17'Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
So the bible shows that Satan was originally an angel who used his free will to oppose God. He was one of the foremost angels, a cherub, and seeing he was an angel, he was a brother of Jesus and a son of God.....he is also a brother of all the other angels.
When war occurred in heaven and Satan was cast out, Revelation 12:10 says: "And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: 'Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him ...On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them!"
in this verse, all the angelic hosts are called 'brothers'
this means that Satan was one of those brothers before he became an opposer of God. Im not suggesting that Satan is still viewed as a brother of Christ now, but he certainly was before he sinned.
and yes, i am a JW.

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 Message 266 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-13-2009 10:34 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 07-14-2009 4:44 AM Peg has replied
 Message 273 by John 10:10, posted 07-14-2009 2:10 PM Peg has replied

  
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