|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Between A Rock & A Hard Place | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You do know what you believe. You've pieced together what you believe from the Christian dogma and traditions you've encountered. You've kept what's comfortable for you. quote:What doesn't make sense? quote:Judaism was for a chosen set of people. Christianity also presents that those who believe are a chosen people. This concept isn't new. Most tribes thought they were chosen people. That's why they had their own gods. Christianity is a religion that tries to control. quote:Why the need for all or nothing? Why must it be perfect or totally flawed? The problem is putting unreasonable expectations on ancient writings.Do you read a current poem and look for facts? Do you listen to a song and listen for facts? Do you read fiction looking for facts? Books and movies based on real events employ creative license to make the story interesting. The ancients are were no different. They had purposes for their writings. What is based on fact and what is creative license is very difficult to discern 2000 years later. That's why we try to discern what the writer's purpose for writing and what the respective writers were trying to tell their audience. We weren't the audience. We weren't meant to understand idioms, slang, humor, etc. of their time.
quote:Religion is man-made. You're expecting perfection (a manmade notion) 2000 years later from writings that may have been "perfect" for the audience. Jay Leno's jokes are for the current audience, not 2000 years in the future.Red Skelton's jokes were for his time. Anyone listening to his radio show today will not understand the jokes concerning the pop culture or the political issues of the time. Trust me, I've listened to them. Understand that everything changes with time. Even God.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The Bible doesn't present itself. It simply contains various writings collected over may centuries. Which author or authors claim that the other writings within the Bible are infallible?Which author or authors claim the idea of all or nothing? Which author or authors claim the other writings must be viewed as absolutely perfect or absolutely flawed? The only pieces that come tumbling down are man made dogma and tradition. If the writings in the Bible don't support a current religious teaching, who is really wrong? The writer or the current teacher? I would say the current teacher is wrong.
quote:As I said, the writings weren't written for our time. They were written for a specific audience and a specific time. Edited by purpledawn, : Added thoughts.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The Bible doesn't teach. It isn't alive. The authors may have taught through their writings or people teach from the writings within the Bible. Besides, I asked first? You said that's how the Bible presents itself. You said the New Testament claimed infallibility for the NT and the OT. Show me. Which author or authors claim that the other writings within the Bible are infallible?Which author or authors claim the idea of all or nothing? Which author or authors claim the other writings must be viewed as absolutely perfect or absolutely flawed? Infallible If the writings in the Bible don't support a current religious teaching, who is really wrong? The writer or the current teacher? I would say the current teacher is wrong. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Unfortunately we don't have any writing that gives us God's opinion on the various Biblical canons. quote:That's what I said. The writers wrote for their own people in their own language, not for people of other languages or in the far future. The redactors and the editors did their work for their time, not the far future. If the writers in the Bible really intended their manuscripts to be read by me, they would have written it in English and would have stayed away from idioms and slang or explained them. Writers write for their audience and their time. When I write to someone I know is uncomfortable with the English language, I try not to use slang, catch phrases, or idioms. If I use them, I explain them. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Unfortunately when personifying the Bible today people tend to forget it was a process. The letter supposedly written by Paul in 2 Timothy (100-150CE) wasn't written by Paul and wasn't referring to itself. The writer would have been referring to the Jewish Canon. Just because the writings have been clumped together, is it really accurate to say the writer was referring to the compilation that contains his writing or is it better to understand what scriptures the writer was actually referring to? Due to changes in the presentation of the writings, our view is very different from the writer's. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
How can you say in Message 33:
Peg writes: the bible should be read with the purpose of understanding 'IT' not with the purpose of understanding the dogma that's being taught. and then turn around and say:
Peg writes: According to Jesus, the serpent lied. he called Satan "a liar and the the father of the Lie" Assuming you are talking about John 8:44, Jesus did not say the snake in the Garden lied to Eve. He also didn't say that Satan was a liar in that verse. Dogma has lumped Satan and the Devil together. Diabolos means prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely. Since a diabolos is someone who is prone to false statements or lies, what better word to personify than diabolos as the father of the lie? This is what causes confusion. Our English translations are set up to support dogma, not necessarily what the writer's wrote. This makes it more difficult for the average person to discern what the writer's in the Bible were trying to tell their audience and whether these writings truly support what the clergy or evangelists present as doctrine. I agree the writings of the Bible should be read to understand what the writer's were trying to tell their target audiences. It should not be read in the light of tradition and dogma of the present. Your posts seem to waffle between the two. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You're saying that the unknown writer of the letter to the Hebrews tells us that we don't have an option to believe or not believe in God's existence. I disagree. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him The statement is common sense. A person who didn't believe God existed wouldn't go to God or worry about pleasing him. It really isn't telling us anything that isn't obvious. It's not telling us we must trust everything told to us about God. The writer, like many religious writers, is trying to give Christianity a shot in the arm.
The Epistle to the Hebrews - Goodspeed They must be shown the immense value of the religion they had come to take as a matter of course, and they must be told how awful the consequences of renouncing it would be. Apathy must be cured and apostasy prevented. It is obvious that one must believe in a god's existence before one can intentionally approach a god, but one doesn't have to believe everything said about any specific god. That's what we deal with when it comes to dogma, tradition, and the writer's of the Bible. Religious teachers and writers do try to make believers feel they aren't allowed to question the doctrine presented. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I agree. It was written for a specific audience at a specific time. quote:No the writer said without faith it is impossible to please God. Common sense. Hard to please what one doesn't believe to exist. As the writer says at the beginning of the chapter: Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
quote:The writer says that those who come to God must believe that he is, etc. Again common sense. If one doesn't believe that something exists, they don't seek it.
11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. IOW, the writer had to rejuvenate the religion since the kingdom hadn't come as expected and reboot the apocalyptic enthusiasm.
Edgar Goodspeed Forty years had now passed since Paul had written Romans. The Roman church was in its second generation. Roman Christians had grown up in the faith. It had been familiar to them from childhood. Most of them had never known any other. They came of Christian parents and had never thought of being anything but Christians. But the primitive apocalyptic expectations had waned. The great distinctive values of Christianity had grown dim. The early enthusiasm had evaporated. Christianity was coming to be an old story. Apathy was pervading the church. The writer is imitating Paul's writing style which means he is building to a point.
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. The writer then moves on to basically say hang tough and keep behaving.
12:7 Endure hardship as discipline:... 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. IOW, the writer wants the people trust that God will come through with the promises.
quote:Just as we have the right to question the writer of Hebrews. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024