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Author Topic:   Divinity of Jesus
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 271 of 517 (514929)
07-14-2009 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Peg
07-13-2009 9:28 PM


Re: Trinity
In saying that Satan is one of Jesus brothers, I should make clear what i mean by that.
Look at this verse from Ezekiel 28:11-19 (this is a prophecy about the destruction of the king of Tyre if you read it in full, but some aspects of this prophecy shed light on an angel/cherub who went down the wrong path)
I don't see it that way at all. Similar in function does not mean that both the Daystar and the Logos were angels.
The book of Hebrews makes it very clear that no angel can be compared to Christ, the Son of God, Who is also addressed as God Himself.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. 13 In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrysolite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 'Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 'Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.
The mention of the precious stones is more reminiscient of the New Jerusalem which is the sign of the living house of God. I mean the tabernacle of God in Revelation 21 and 22. But New Jerusalem stands for all the redeemed. They have become living stones built up into a spiritual house as the climax of God's salvation:
"You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood ... (1 Peter 2:5)
The function of this anointed cherub then, more reminds us of the function of the corporate body of the saved in eternity future. This would explain satan's intense hatred for man and for God's redeemed people. For with them God gains superabundantly whatever loss was incurred with the rebellion of the anointed cherub.
New Jerusalem, composed of 12 manner of precious stones is the house of God and the tabernacle of God. It is a sign of the people of God within whom God's life and nature have been fully dispensed transforming them, building them up to be the Lamb's corporate Bride and Wife. As well she is called that tabernacle of God meaning that God and man meet in her.
I think you are missing the real tension and comparison in some regards.
And you are using this passage to teach that the Son of God was an archangel which teaching I completely disagree with.
So the bible shows that Satan was originally an angel who used his free will to oppose God. He was one of the foremost angels, a cherub, and seeing he was an angel, he was a brother of Jesus and a son of God.....he is also a brother of all the other angels.
Christ was not an archangel and was not a angelic brother of the anointed cherub.
One of our proofs for this is the book of Hebrews. The question goes out "To which of the angels has He ever said, You are My Son; this day I have begotten You?" (Hebrews 1:5).
The contrast between the Son of God and ANY angel is well established in Hebrews chapter one. And Christ cannot be compared to Gabriel or Michael or to the Daystar or to ANY angel.
"To which of the angels ...?" is to be answered "To NO angel at NO time" can we say the Son was like one of these angels. You err greatly by teaching that we should reply to the question posed by Hebrews 1:5 with "To Michael the angel, of course".
This would be against the whole point of contrasting the Son of God to any and all angels as the writer does.
When war occurred in heaven and Satan was cast out, Revelation 12:10 says: "And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: 'Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him ...On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them!"
in this verse, all the angelic hosts are called 'brothers'
this means that Satan was one of those brothers before he became an opposer of God. Im not suggesting that Satan is still viewed as a brother of Christ now, but he certainly was before he sinned.
Totally incorrect. Brothers here are overcomers who are victorious by the blood of the Lamb. This means that they are recipients of Christ's redemption. The good angels have never sinned and do not need the blood of Christ as the fallen human sinners do.
Peg, you have been misled by Russell's false teaching.
In Revelation 12 the plural pronoun "they" and "their" prove that the manchild is a corporate entity of overcoming believers. They are not angels. The angels who are ministering servants of the human believers do fight on behalf of thier salvation with the bad angels. But the overcomers are redeemed sinners who overcome the accuser of the brethern by the blood of the Lamb.
Good angels may prevail against Satan and his angels. But they emphatically do not do so because of the blood of the Lamb. Christ did not shed His blood for sinless angels.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb ..." (Rev. 12:10,11a)
The overcomers here is the collective MANCHILD. The angels are the ministering servants of the redeemed sinners [b]"sent forth for SERVICE for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation"(Hebrews 1:14).
This explains of course why the good angels go and fight against the bad angels on behalf of the overcoming redeemed sinners.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:28 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 5:54 AM jaywill has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 272 of 517 (514931)
07-14-2009 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jaywill
07-14-2009 4:44 AM


Re: Trinity
Jawill, what does it mean that Jesus was the 'Word'
how do you understand that description of him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 07-14-2009 4:44 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jaywill, posted 07-14-2009 3:19 PM Peg has replied
 Message 275 by John 10:10, posted 07-14-2009 6:40 PM Peg has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 273 of 517 (514973)
07-14-2009 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Peg
07-13-2009 9:28 PM


Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
As clear as can be stated, Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult. As such they do not believe in historic Christianity as revealed by Jesus Christ and given to His apostles 2000 years ago. Their beliefs developed only in the late 1800's by Charles Taze Russell. JW's believe Jesus Christ is a brother of Satan, both being created angels. According to JW's, Jesus Christ in not Lord God who now sits at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 2:32-36), and they are ONE (John 10:30).
Basic Beliefs:
God
JWs deny the Trinity.
A less important point - Jehovah's Witnesses claim God's only true and correct name is "Jehovah" - which actually doesn't appear in the Bible. It comes from adding the vowels from "Adonai" (Hebrew for "Lord") to "YHWH." This was first done in AD1270 by a Roman Catholic monk (thanks, Raymundus) - apparently JW's own "Aid" book admits this on pages 884 & 885.
Jesus Christ
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael, and that he is the first being created by God. They believe He was not bodily resurrected, and that He returned invisibly to Earth in 1914.
The Holy Spirit
JWs believe that the Holy Spirit is just a force, like electricity.
Salvation
They believe that salvation is through good works and by being a Jehovah's Witness.
Bible
The Watchtower teaches that the Bible is not properly understandable without the Watchtower's materials. According to them their own New World Translation (NWT) Bible is the only true version.
New Zealand Cults, Sects, Religions, Christian Organisations, and other groups
If any here at the EVC Forum want to learn the truth of the Bible and who Jesus Christ really is, and God's salvation that is found only in Him, you will not do so from a Jehovah Witness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:28 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 2:05 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 274 of 517 (514982)
07-14-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Peg
07-14-2009 5:54 AM


Re: Trinity
Jawill, what does it mean that Jesus was the 'Word'
how do you understand that description of him?
What the Word is may take us eternity to explore. The Word, the Logos may be too profound for me to fully discribe.
John says in the same chapter that no one has ever seen God. And the only begotten Son has declared Him. I take Christ to be the explanation of God and the manifestation of God.
I will tell you what the Word is not. The Word is not the archangel Michael.
The relationship of the Word and God in the New Testament can be compared to that of the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah in many places in the Old Testament. The two designations is interchangeably used.
I do not pretend to be able to give an exhaustive definition of the Word any more than I could give one of God. But I am sure the Word is not another god and is not the angel Michael.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 5:54 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 2:46 AM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 275 of 517 (515010)
07-14-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Peg
07-14-2009 5:54 AM


Re: Trinity
The best explanation of "what does it mean that Jesus was the Word" is found in John 1,
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John, who was inspired by the Spirit of God to write these verses, reveals that before Jesus became flesh to accomplish His purpose of redeeming man from his sin, He was with God the Father as the Word of God, the Word was God, and all things in creation came into being through Him. This is what historic Christianity has believed for 2000 years. Cults, such as the JW's, try to say otherwise, but that is what cults do. They distort the true revelation of who Jesus is, downgrading Him to a created being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 5:54 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 7:49 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 276 of 517 (515040)
07-15-2009 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by John 10:10
07-14-2009 2:10 PM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
this probably isnt the place to discuss JW's, there is a comparative religions forum where it would fit well

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by John 10:10, posted 07-14-2009 2:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by John 10:10, posted 07-15-2009 12:41 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 277 of 517 (515041)
07-15-2009 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by jaywill
07-14-2009 3:19 PM


Re: Trinity
jaywill writes:
John says in the same chapter that no one has ever seen God. And the only begotten Son has declared Him. I take Christ to be the explanation of God and the manifestation of God.
so what you are saying is that, no one has seen God as John confirms, except for Jesus, who is God?
jaywill writes:
The relationship of the Word and God in the New Testament can be compared to that of the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah in many places in the Old Testament. The two designations is interchangeably used.
do you have an example of where they are used interchangeably? If what you are saying is correct, then Jehovah is actually an angel of himself
this would mean that God is an angel and therefore Jesus is an angel, but you've already said that Jesus is not an angel...im confused!
jaywill writes:
I do not pretend to be able to give an exhaustive definition of the Word any more than I could give one of God. But I am sure the Word is not another god and is not the angel Michael.
its certainly an interesting topic to explore...here are some thoughts and scriptures to start it off.
the hebrew word davar (word) means more then just unit of speech, its carries the thought of an entire statement, a pronouncement and a complete message. So the bible, when talking about the 'word' it generally refers to the Word of God.
We know that God communicates with mankind and he reveals his word in a variety of ways. God’s words were spoken through an angel, to such men as Adam, Noah, and Abraham. (Ge 3:9-19; 6:13; 12:1) Moses and Aaron (Ex 5:1)
the following scriptures show that the Apostles understood this:
quote:
Acts 7:53YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.
Galations 3:19Why, then, the Law?... and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator...
Hebrews 2:12 That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things heard by us...2 For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm...
then also we know that Jesus is called the 'logos' or 'the word' at John 1.
The word as a title could be similar to how Aaron was the word or "mouth" of Moses, Ex 4:16 says: "He must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him."
Likely in the same way, Jesus, Gods firstborn/only begotten son would have been the one to served as the Mouth, or Spokesman, for his Father
Have a look at the Scriptures in brackets (Ge 16:7-11; 22:11; 31:11; Ex 3:2-5; Jg 2:1-4; 6:11,12; 13:3)
This angle is the angel of Jehovah and is said to have Jehovahs name, and its the angel who guided the Israelites through the wilderness.(Ex 23:20-23)
This angel carried the word of Jehovah to the isrealites.
Jesus carried the word of Jehovah as his words testify in the following scripture:
_________________________________________________________
John 12:44However, Jesus cried out and said: "He that puts faith in me puts faith, not in me [only], but in him [also] that sent me; 45and he that beholds me beholds [also] him that sent me.
46I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in the darkness.
47But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day;
49because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.
50Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me [them], so I speak [them]."
im sure there is more to this subject but i'll leave it at this for now.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jaywill, posted 07-14-2009 3:19 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by jaywill, posted 07-15-2009 8:58 AM Peg has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 278 of 517 (515058)
07-15-2009 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Peg
07-15-2009 2:46 AM


Re: Trinity
This morning I will only have time to write about these comments Peg:
so what you are saying is that, no one has seen God as John confirms, except for Jesus, who is God?
No, that is not what I meant when I refered to John 1:18 particularly, which says:
"No one has ever seen God, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
Here it is not a matter of Jesus being the only one who has seen God (though latter He states only He has seen the Father). Here in 1:18 it is rather that God has been declared through Christ.
But Christ is not only God. Christ is God / Man. Christ is the mingling of divinity and humanity. For two or more things to be mingled means that they are combined in such a way that the components remain distinguishable in the combination.
When you say that I have said " ... Jesus, who is God" I do not want you to think I mean Jesus is not also a man. Jesus is the mingling of God and man. God's eternal purpose is to mingle with man. Christ represents not only man's Redeemer and Savior but the beginning of God's operation to dispense His life and nature into man.
In that sense He is "the beginning" in Colossian 1:18. The beginning of the deification of man is Christ. Though deified humans are never the object of worship as Christ is, they are nevertheless called His brothers.
"And He is the Head of the Body, the church, He is THE BEGINNING, the FIRSTBORN from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things." (Col. 1:18)
This matter of the Head of the Body, Christ being the beginning and the Firstborn is distinct from His being Firstborn of all creation in verse 15. And we can talk about that verses perhaps latter.
But because Christ is to have first place in all things, He is FIRST in many regards and not just one. Here I focus on Him being the beginning of the creation which chiefly God mingled with humanity. And this "beginning" is also that beginning mentioned in Revelation 3:14:
"And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God ..." (Rev. 3:18)
Colossians 1:18 and Revelation 3:14 are two verses describing Jesus Christ as the beginning of God's dispensing Himself into man to make a new creation of the mingling of God and man:
"So then if anyone is in Christ, [he] is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behiold, they have become new." (2 Cor. 5:17)
Because Christ is God united with man, those who through His redemption and salvation, who are brought into Him are called the many brothers of the Firstborn Son of God.
"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; And those whom He predestinated, these He also called, and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Romans 8:29,30)
Christ is the beginning of this new creation of men mingled with God. Now back to John 1:18. This reality of God mingled with man is so striking to the Apostle John that he states a very bold thing. He claims that no one has ever seen God. How could he say this with all the appearances of God to the patriarchs and a few prophets in the Old Testament?
John now tells his New Testament audience that all those seeings of God do not count. Or they have been superceded by something far more momentous. God has been declared, manifested, made known, and seen in the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Not only is God "seen" for the first time in this mingling of God and man. The New Testament reveals that those who receive Christ, and partake fully of His salvific process, be led as brothers into this expression of God in man.
Please consider these confirming passages:
"He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten ... of God." (See John 1:11-13)
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Heb. 2:10)
Christ is the Author of salvation who is leading many sons of God into the glorious expression of the Divine Life, the Devine Being. He comes again into the inhabited earth not refered to as the only begotten but as the Firstborn:
"And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:6)
This is important also because it relates to the victory of that corporate Manchild who overcomes the accuser of the brothers in Revelation 12. But for now I want you to see God's purpose to dispense His life into man to produce brothers for Christ the Firstborn Son of God. And as related to John 1:18, God was seen in the man Jesus, which reality transcends in John's mind, to all of the appearances of God in the Old Testament.
"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
Before His resurrection He is the only begotten Son. At His resurrection He became in addition, the Firstborn Son of God. First, strongly implies that other sons of God will follow. He is the HEAD of this Body of sons of God.
jaywill writes:
The relationship of the Word and God in the New Testament can be compared to that of the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah in many places in the Old Testament. The two designations is interchangeably used.
do you have an example of where they are used interchangeably? If what you are saying is correct, then Jehovah is actually an angel of himself
Latter I will show you an example where God sends God, Jehovah sends Jehovah, and where Jehovah is both the Sent One and the One Who Sends.
For now we see the Angel of Jehovah used interchangeably with Jehovah in Exodus 3:
"And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. And when he looked, there was the thornbush, burning with fire; but the thornbush was not consumed. (3:2)
And Moses said, I must turn aside now and see this sight, whgy the thornbush does not burn up. (v.3)
And when Jehovah saw tjat je jad turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses ... and He said, I am the God of your father, the Gosd of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. (v.6)
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to Moses (v.2) and Moses was afraid to look at God (v.6).
There are other examples. This is all I have time for now. We should come back to this passage.
this would mean that God is an angel and therefore Jesus is an angel, but you've already said that Jesus is not an angel...im confused!
I said that Christ is not the archangel Michael. I said that Christ is not an archangel. I may have said that Christ is not an angel. However, in the sense that Christ is also sent, He can be called an Angel in that sense. As a Messenger who is sent by His Father, yes, Christ is the Angel of Jehovah in that sense. In the book of Revelation I believe that these signs of "another Angel" symbolize Jesus Christ the Son of God: Revelation 7:2; 8:1; 10:1; 18:1.
I believe that because Revelation is made known "by signs" (1:1), the reference to "another Angel" signifies Christ. Darby follows this interpretation in his New Translation by capitalizing Angel in those instances. The Recovery Version follows the same practice.
But to say that Christ is an angel in the same way as Michael or Gabriel, is wrong. Hebrews says that "all the angels" will worship Christ in His second coming to the inhabited earth (Heb.1:6). And it is not to angels that God has subjected the coming earth, which statement would be false if Christ were the archangel Michael:
"For it was not to angels that He subjected the coming inhabited earth, concerning which we speak." (Hebrews 2:5)
Hebrews 1:4 through 2:18 is specifically dedicated to drawing a contrast between the Son of God and angels. He is superior to any and all angels. It seems that Russell must have totally ignored this portion of the New Testament.
jaywill writes:
I do not pretend to be able to give an exhaustive definition of the Word any more than I could give one of God. But I am sure the Word is not another god and is not the angel Michael.
its certainly an interesting topic to explore...here are some thoughts and scriptures to start it off.
the hebrew word davar (word) means more then just unit of speech, its carries the thought of an entire statement, a pronouncement and a complete message. So the bible, when talking about the 'word' it generally refers to the Word of God.
We know that God communicates with mankind and he reveals his word in a variety of ways. God’s words were spoken through an angel, to such men as Adam, Noah, and Abraham. (Ge 3:9-19; 6:13; 12:1) Moses and Aaron (Ex 5:1)
the following scriptures show that the Apostles understood this:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 7:53 YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.
Galations 3:19 Why, then, the Law?... and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator...
Hebrews 2:12 That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things heard by us...2 For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm...
Notice that you wrote here:
God’s words were spoken through an angel, to such men as Adam, Noah, and Abraham. (Ge 3:9-19; 6:13; 12:1) Moses and Aaron (Ex 5:1)
The first three passages you submit, (Ge 3:9-19; 6:13; 12:1) say nothing about an angel. And you should not use Galatians 3:19 to prove that these passages refer to angels for two reasons:
1.) All three passages do not refer to God communicating the Law.
2.) In Galatians 3 Paul is making a point that the promise of God was given without the mediation of angels as opposed to the Law of God which was. The promise of God to Abraham in its first Old Testament reference is Genesis 12:1. That is when Jehovah speaks to Abram and gives him instructions and a promise.
I believe that Paul is saying that " [b]ecause the law was ordained through angels in the hand of a mediator and, unlike the promise, was not given by God directly to the people, it is not primary but secondary in God's economy." [Footnote 19(2) of Galatians 3:19, Recovery Version]
Galatians 3:19 is exactly the wrong passage to use to try to prove that an angel mediated the giving of the promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:1. And stretching the meaning over the other Genesis passages is also weak for this is all before the Mosiac Law.
Now Exodus 5:1 which you also listed as evidence of God speaking through an angel is before the giving of the Law of Moses too. It does have Moses and Aaron telling Pharoah that Jehovah had spoken to them. Using Galatians 3:19 to prove that an angel did the speaking is at best a arguable assumption. That is unless you admit that the Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah in that mysterious way in which I have shown in Exodus 3.
I will have to discontinue here for now.
May God have mercy on us to clear our heart's eyes to see Christ with His first place in all things. And may He grant us to see there is utter coordination and cooperation between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is no possibility of competition or envy or jealousy within the Triune God. For Each lives in the Other for the dispensing of God's life into man.
Visit God‘s Economy: recovered by Witness Lee, enjoyed by local churches
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 2:46 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 8:40 AM jaywill has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 279 of 517 (515069)
07-15-2009 9:48 AM


What chance do us poor heathens have?
Seems like Jesus cannot do anything right.
When Jesus' chosen cannot even decide what He is then what chance do we heathens have?
If I listen to Peg and she's wrong I'm doomed, if I listen to Jay and he's wrong I'm doomed, if I listen to John 10:10 (who would in their right mind?) and he's wrong I'm doomed.
Christianity really is a mess.

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jaywill, posted 07-15-2009 11:01 AM Brian has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 280 of 517 (515082)
07-15-2009 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Brian
07-15-2009 9:48 AM


Re: What chance do us poor heathens have?
Seems like Jesus cannot do anything right.
When Jesus' chosen cannot even decide what He is then what chance do we heathens have?
If I listen to Peg and she's wrong I'm doomed, if I listen to Jay and he's wrong I'm doomed, if I listen to John 10:10 (who would in their right mind?) and he's wrong I'm doomed.
You should not be discouraged. That is unless you are looking to be discouraged. You should not be turned off. That is unless you want to be turned off.
There are differences of opinion about Evolution among Evolutionists. Probably you don't throw up your hands and decide it is hopeless ever make sense of all these fine points of differences.
God knows our heart. We can come to Him in prayer and have a good long honest outpouring of our heart to Him. He is willing and eager to save us from "doom". He takes no delight that you feel "doomed".
If you come confessing your sins and seeking Jesus as the way of redemption I am sure that you will be led by the Holy Spirit, in spite of debates here.
Knowing the past nature of your posts though, I wonder if you're shedding "crocodile tears" but inwardly are delighted that two Bible readers don't agree on everything.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 9:48 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 11:51 AM jaywill has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 281 of 517 (515093)
07-15-2009 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by jaywill
07-15-2009 11:01 AM


Re: What chance do us poor heathens have?
Knowing the past nature of your posts though, I wonder if you're shedding "crocodile tears" but inwardly are delighted that two Bible readers don't agree on everything.
Not delighted at all, just desperately sad for both of you. Such a waste of life, so very very sad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jaywill, posted 07-15-2009 11:01 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jaywill, posted 07-15-2009 12:01 PM Brian has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 282 of 517 (515098)
07-15-2009 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Brian
07-15-2009 11:51 AM


Re: What chance do us poor heathens have?
Don't worry about me. I'm doing fine. I have no regrets about anything.
Given a chance to live life over, I would only hope to begin to believe in Jesus earlier.
Maybe you didn't read that He's "the God of eternal encouragement".
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 11:51 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 12:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 283 of 517 (515102)
07-15-2009 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by jaywill
07-15-2009 12:01 PM


Re: What chance do us poor heathens have?
Don't worry about me.
But that's what decent people do Jay.
I'm doing fine. I have no regrets about anything.
All part of the psychosis Jay.
Given a chance to live life over, I would only hope to begin to believe in Jesus earlier.
It is your life to waste Jay, still can't help feeling sorry for you though.
But, as long as you're happy, that's the main thing.
Maybe you didn't read that He's "the God of eternal encouragement".
I've read many things about God, however none of them are true.
As far as your quote goes, I would take everything Paul said with a very large dose of salt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by jaywill, posted 07-15-2009 12:01 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by jaywill, posted 07-15-2009 12:53 PM Brian has replied
 Message 288 by jaywill, posted 07-15-2009 1:08 PM Brian has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 284 of 517 (515110)
07-15-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Peg
07-15-2009 2:05 AM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
The bottom line is that a cult like Jehovah Witnesses does not have the right to explain to others on this forum what the Bible says and means concerning the divinity of Jesus. JW's cannot hear what the Spirit is saying to sinners who are being drawn to our Lord Jesus Christ, nor can they take the things of Jesus and understand them (John 16:13-15). Jesus gave this advice to blind guides,
Mt 15:14 - "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
Maybe you would fit better in one of your JW forums, or in a forum for unbelievers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 2:05 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Rahvin, posted 07-15-2009 12:59 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 287 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 1:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 285 of 517 (515113)
07-15-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Brian
07-15-2009 12:18 PM


Re: What chance do us poor heathens have?
We're talking about the Divinity of Jesus here. Maybe you could kind of work your sympathetic comments into that subject.
Why is it a mental illness to believe that God was incarnated in Jesus Christ ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 12:18 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 1:08 PM jaywill has replied

  
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