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Author Topic:   Pick and Choose Fundamentalism
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 181 of 384 (514922)
07-14-2009 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Peg
07-13-2009 10:54 PM


Re: Double standards?
Peg writes:
Our authorities can decree capital punishment upon some criminals, why should the God of the universe not have that right?
What could those toddlers have done to have them deemed as criminals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 10:54 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 3:15 AM Taz has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 182 of 384 (514927)
07-14-2009 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Taz
07-14-2009 12:31 AM


Re: Double standards?
Taz writes:
What could those toddlers have done to have them deemed as criminals?
i dont have an answer to this question. I'm not going to automatically assume that God was in the wrong though.
I do know that the inhabitants of the land were told to leave because the land was being given to the Isrealites, they chose to fight God and the Isrealites and they came off second best.
Perhaps if the Cannanites had submitted to Gods decision to give the land to the children of his friend Abraham, they and their children would not have had to die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Taz, posted 07-14-2009 12:31 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Brian, posted 07-14-2009 6:53 AM Peg has replied
 Message 185 by Taz, posted 07-14-2009 1:37 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 186 by bluescat48, posted 07-14-2009 5:59 PM Peg has replied
 Message 187 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 8:06 PM Peg has replied
 Message 188 by themasterdebator, posted 07-14-2009 8:15 PM Peg has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 183 of 384 (514932)
07-14-2009 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Peg
07-13-2009 10:54 PM


Re: Double standards?
there is such a thing as righteous warfare
Righteous warfare that demands that the victor slaughters defenceless children once the battle is over? I don’t see anything righteous there.
the cannanites, whom the Isrealites were told to destroy, were these very people who practiced vile acts such as human sacrifice mentioned above.
Well, I see three problems here. Firstly, you haven’t provided any evidence to back up your claim, no surprise there of course. Secondly, how can a tiny baby practise ‘vile acts such as human sacrifice’?, Finally, human sacrifice appears not to be a ‘criminal’ act when Yahweh orders it, and there’s many a mention in the Bible of Yahweh being happy with human sacrifices (Ex. 13:2, 22:29 and Lev 17:1-14 to mention a few of these).
So please dont compare the cannanites with the righteous judgment of God.
You have yet to prove that there was a righteous judgement, all you have provided so far is your famous unsupported assertions.
If our govnernments, run by corrupt people, have the right to act as judges over us, who is to say that God cannot have that right?
And whose government insists that we should put babies to death because their parents are doing something wrong?
Why would God order the slaughter of a 2 month old baby at Jericho because some priests had been practising child sacrifice? It’s not as if God is saving the baby is it?
Our authorities can decree capital punishment upon some criminals, why should the God of the universe not have that right?
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t a government actually carry out the death penalty on those who commit the crime?
It is a poor comparison anyway, we vote governments into power, who voted evil Yahweh into power?
Honestly, your desperation to defend the evil Yahweh has completely short-circuited your thinking process, you think it is okay to kill a baby because a group of adults have been sacrificing children.
Can you seriously not see the error in your thinking here? Why are babies guilty of a ‘crime’ that adults are performing?
Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 10:54 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 7:32 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 184 of 384 (514933)
07-14-2009 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Peg
07-14-2009 3:15 AM


Re: Double standards?
i dont have an answer to this question.
Peg code for: "I know God is an evil bstard but I am not going to admit it.
I'm not going to automatically assume that God was in the wrong though.
But you will automatically assume that God is in the right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 3:15 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 7:52 AM Brian has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 185 of 384 (514963)
07-14-2009 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Peg
07-14-2009 3:15 AM


Re: Double standards?
Haha, only a christian would try to rationalize murdering toddlers and babies and make it sound likea just thing.
Do me a favor and don't ever move to my neighborhood. I got nephews and nieces coming over like every other day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 3:15 AM Peg has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 186 of 384 (515008)
07-14-2009 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Peg
07-14-2009 3:15 AM


Re: Double standards?
Perhaps if the Cannanites had submitted to Gods decision to give the land to the children of his friend Abraham, they and their children would not have had to die.
So if some group approached your country and said their God demanded that you relinquish your land to them, would you?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 3:15 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 7:58 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 187 of 384 (515016)
07-14-2009 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Peg
07-14-2009 3:15 AM


Re: Double standards?
Peg writes:
Taz writes:
What could those toddlers have done to have them deemed as criminals?
i dont have an answer to this question. I'm not going to automatically assume that God was in the wrong though.
If God is not wrong in ordering the murder babies and children, that means it is right or 'good' to murder babies and children. Correct?
Peg writes:
I do know that the inhabitants of the land were told to leave because the land was being given to the Isrealites, they chose to fight God and the Isrealites and they came off second best.
So the children and infants are bloodely butchered because there parents choose to fight for there communities/civilization?
So is it ok for me to murder you and sons, take your house, and take your wife and daughters as sex slaves, if God told me too?
Peg writes:
Perhaps if the Cannanites had submitted to Gods decision to give the land to the children of his friend Abraham, they and their children would not have had to die.
Do you actually believe this? You really worry me Peg!

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 3:15 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Taz, posted 07-14-2009 9:27 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 196 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 8:17 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 384 (515017)
07-14-2009 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Peg
07-14-2009 3:15 AM


Re: Double standards?
i dont have an answer to this question. I'm not going to automatically assume that God was in the wrong though.
I do know that the inhabitants of the land were told to leave because the land was being given to the Isrealites, they chose to fight God and the Isrealites and they came off second best.
Perhaps if the Cannanites had submitted to Gods decision to give the land to the children of his friend Abraham, they and their children would not have had to die.
Just for the record, your not going to assume slaughtering large numbers of young children with no practical purpose is wrong? What could they have possible done to offend the Jews other than being born?
I dont see how a toddler would have the comprehension to leave Israel and submit to gods will. Furthermore, if he had done so he would simply die as he is completely unable to fend for yourself.
Furthermore, lets look at what your suggesting to the Caananites.
"Hi, I know you guys have spent your entire lives living here and claimed this territory completely legitimately, but God(who you dont believe in and have never heard of before) wants us to have this land. He is a benevolant God with everyones best interest at heart. So you need to instantly leave this land and find somewhere else to live(which will probably involve a journey that kills a large part of your population because we are surrounded by barren desert) or God will help us slaughter every last one of you(including the ones who have no possible choice of making this decision)"
If you were a Caananite, would you believe this God is someone you would wish to follow? There was no negotiation or attempt to compromise. An all powerful God could have offered the Caananites something in return for giving up their entire livelyhood or he could have avoided the whole mess by creating some land for the Israelites. Instead, he chose to tell the Caananites they could leave their lands(and have a great number of their people die in a search for a new lands) or every last one of them would be slaughtered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 3:15 AM Peg has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 189 of 384 (515022)
07-14-2009 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by DevilsAdvocate
07-14-2009 8:06 PM


Re: Double standards?
DA writes:
You really worry me Peg!
She scares the shit out of me. I'm a civil servant. In my profession, I do come across what we would classify as sociopaths. Unlike the stigma that is associated with this word, most sociopaths actually live normal lives like the rest of us. What makes them unique is that they are unable to tell the difference between right and wrong. There is something wrong with their minds that renders them incapable of understanding why something is right and why something is wrong.
Some scientists have done studies on these individuals and have found a pattern among them. Their frontal lobe, the area of the brain responsible for impulse control, doesn't seem to function as much as the frontal lobe of a normal person. The impulse control is usually referred to as a person's conscience.
Most sociopaths are able to live among us without a problem because they've learned to imitate what society expects of them. In other words, they pretend their way through life. Every once in a while, though, there are a few that just don't make it and end up being murderers and rapists. They become high profile.
People like peg scares the hell out of me because they display a total lack of sense of right and wrong. They simply can't understand why an action like hacking a child to death is wrong. Sure, they'll continue to live their lives not hacking children to death because they know that's what society expects of them. But one of these days...
The scary thing in all of these is these have children and teach their children their screwed up worldview. Some of them even become religious leaders.
Added by edit.
I think the most famous case in the 20th century of these special individuals able to take over a country and wreaked havoc upon the world was Nazi Germany. It was an unempathetic nation lead by a hand full of sociopaths who couldn't understand why it was wrong to kill innocent people. Peg would fit quite nicely into their society.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 8:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 9:51 PM Taz has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 190 of 384 (515024)
07-14-2009 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taz
07-14-2009 9:27 PM


Re: Double standards?
Taz,
Not knowing Peg personally I could not say whether or not what your prediction about Peg is true. However, my suspicians are that like most religious people, she really does not truely believe the very words she states (if she did than I would certainly say she is a functional sociopath).
What I mean by this is that many religious people will give you the religious "talking points" that they have been brain washed into "believing" without really thinking through the implications of what they believe or say. It is a form of what I would call "shallow thinking" in which a person's emotions override the logical side of there mind resulting in the tendancy to glance over and unknowingly support obvious (even to themselves) contradictory ethical values (i.e. defending the Biblical mandate by God to murder innocent children and infants while at the same time advocating and promoting the "pro-life" anti-abortion movement). In other words she is enmeshed in a form of moral cognitive dissonance.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Taz, posted 07-14-2009 9:27 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by themasterdebator, posted 07-14-2009 11:24 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 192 by Taz, posted 07-15-2009 12:14 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 197 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 8:26 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 384 (515031)
07-14-2009 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate
07-14-2009 9:51 PM


Re: Double standards?
I have to agree with Devil, I don't think Peg is a sociopath. She just behaves like many religious people I know. Whenever they are confronted with something "wrong" in their religion. They first try to rationalize it and if they cant rationalize it they simply don't think about it.
I am expecting this is what Peg is doing. She is rationalizing is right now, but if that does not work I expect her to claim something along the lines of "I do not know but I have faith it is right" then try her hardest not to think of why god would kill small children.
Its very easy to do when you really don't want to lose your current world view. Its much easier to believe a comforting lie that those around you also follow then to face a uncomfortable reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 9:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 192 of 384 (515034)
07-15-2009 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate
07-14-2009 9:51 PM


Re: Double standards?
DA writes:
Not knowing Peg personally I could not say whether or not what your prediction about Peg is true.
I didn't make any prediction. I don't know anything about peg personally. All I have to go on are the things that she had said. And so far, she has given me every reason to believe she is incapable of understanding the difference between what's right and what's wrong.
There are more functioning sociopaths out there than you think. They occupy every part of society. Not intending to sound prejudicial to these people, but it's our responsibility as people who are capable of understanding what's right and wrong to identify the ones who are incapable of understanding what's right and wrong to prevent another holocaust.
I may sound too harsh or too doomsday-like. But the last time we ignored and dismissed people like peg, tens of millions of people died horrible deaths as a result. Whole families were systematically gassed to death because a group of people decided they had some kind of divine mandate to exterminate an entire race of people. Gee, sound familiar?
If you're not convinced, look at her posts again. Now, imagine her teaching her sociopathic standards to her children. Imagine them growing up believing it's ok to exterminate entire civilizations to take their land.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-14-2009 9:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 8:28 AM Taz has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 193 of 384 (515045)
07-15-2009 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Brian
07-14-2009 6:49 AM


Re: Double standards?
God directed Israel to use warfare to take possession of the land that he himself designated as their inheritance and to execute people who carried on depraved practices and defied God. (Deut. 7:1, 2,5; 9:5; Lev. 18:24,25)
But there are instances when he spared the lives of some of the people who Isreal was warring against eg Rahab and to the Gibeonites (Josh. 2:9-13; 9:24-27) ...he also laid down rules regarding how warfare was to be carried out that the isrealites had to obey.
so it wasnt discriminant warfare...unlike dropping a bomb on a densely inhabited city for instance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Brian, posted 07-14-2009 6:49 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-15-2009 10:32 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 203 by themasterdebator, posted 07-15-2009 11:41 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 194 of 384 (515050)
07-15-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Brian
07-14-2009 6:53 AM


Re: Double standards?
Brian writes:
Peg code for: "I know God is an evil bstard but I am not going to admit it.
no, I dont believe God is a bastard at all. I've said previously that there are still some aspects of the bible that i dont fully understand, but that doesnt mean that i would throw it away and assume the worst
Brian writes:
But you will automatically assume that God is in the right?
No, i wouldnt automatically assume he was in the right. I've come to that conclusion through my study. I have seen that in all Gods dealings with mankind, his decisions have been based on justice, righteousness and mercy.
I've learnt a lot about the cannanite people and their form of worhsip.
They erected 'sacred poles' which were phallic symbols where gross sexual depravity was carried out. (Ex 23:24; 34:12,13; Nu 33:52; De 7:5) Incest, sodomy, and bestiality were common place. The goddesses Ashtoreth, Asherah, and Anath are presented in an Egyptian text as both mother-goddesses and as sacred prostitutes. Their worship involved mass sex orgies and prostitution. These goddesses promoted sadistic violence and warfare who praised the slaughter of men by being decorated with pieces of mens slaughtered bodies while she joyfully wades in their blood. The figurines found in Palestine are of a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs.
Would you want to be one of these canaanites children? I think God was doing the right thing.
Excavations in Palestine have uncovered piles of ashes and remains of infant skeletons in cemeteries around heathen altars, pointing to the widespread practice of this cruel form of worship. ...this was their religion...Murder bloodshed and sex....and they invented it!
nice bunch of people to get to know. Its no wonder God effaced them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Brian, posted 07-14-2009 6:53 AM Brian has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 195 of 384 (515051)
07-15-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by bluescat48
07-14-2009 5:59 PM


Re: Double standards?
bluescat48 writes:
So if some group approached your country and said their God demanded that you relinquish your land to them, would you?
depends on which God was demanding it...the cannanites refused to acknowledge Isreals God and they soon learnt that they could not fight him and win

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by bluescat48, posted 07-14-2009 5:59 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
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