Sin

Hi BleujayI know next to nothing about Mormonism but I am intrigued by the idea of an absolute morality that is an inherent part of the natural universe. Would this not require that whoever or whatever created the universe also created morality and the concept of sin as part of that universe? In which case are we not back to the arbitrary nature of sin as designed by some sort of universe creating god entity? I have no idea what mormonsim teaches about the origin of the universe (and thus sin) but if there is a creator involved I think we are necessarily back to arbitrary god-given laws again. Well are the effects empirically detectable in themselves? Or is it only the "soul" or mind of the sinner that is affected by sin. If it is the latter then it will be impossible to truly objectively verify the effects of sin. Instead the best that can be achieved is speculation with regard to what is going inside the mind of the sinner as indicated by their behaviour. This would seem a rather unreliable measure of anything at all. If god is not the arbiter of sin then a key role normally associated with god has indeed been removed. However surely arguments for compassion, spiritual meaning, guidance and other such roles can still remain for god? As you know I am not a believer but I am not convinced that those who do believe in god would, or even should, feel the need to consider god wholly superfluous purely on the basis of it being shown that sin was a function of the natural universe.If we assume for the sake of argument that sin is a product of the natural universe how do we determine what is sinful and what is not?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Fair point. Exactly as gravity would not be an arbitrary god construct but instead a necessary feature of a stable universe as constructed by a limited and non-omnipotent being so, in this context, would sin be such a necessary and thus unchosen feature.I don't know what the Mormon position is with regard to any of this this stuff. Whilst I could look it up I'll probably wait to let Bluejay explain in his own words as I usually find his posts clear, honest and well thought out whether I agree with him or not.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

That made me chuckle. Well I have spent some time in Paris recently so maybe I have unconsciously gone all Gallic.I must admit that I quite like this idea of an absolute morality that is an inherent and natural property of the universe. I don't really see how this could be the case and don't subscribe to the idea personally but I do quite like the notion.If we assume that sin is a product of the natural universe how do we determine what the universe "deems" to be sinful and what is not? How do Mormons claim to know what is sinful?Also how do we account for the fact that individual morality and notions of "sinfulness" seem to be very dependent on the prevailing culture in the time and place that one exists? As would be asked of any claim that an absolute morality of any sort exists.

Hi Michamus No problem at all. Happy to get you take on the subject at hand. But who decides what is detrimental and what is not? Or is it just considered obvious?If I consider something to be detrimental but you consider it to be beneficial is it actually sinful? Indeed. But even if we assume that a natural and universal morality of some sort actually exists my question really relates to how we can ever know what this objective reality stipulates to be sinful? Ah yes...But who decides what constitutes healthy human growth and satisfaction? An activity that one person finds satisfying and emotionally beneficial may well result in extreme anxiety, stress and physically destructive tendancies in another individual. Is that activity then to be deemed sinful? Or not?

Rules? How were these rules originally decided upon, ascertained or othersie derived? How can one know what the universe stipulates as "sinful" or "right"? Positive or negative? By how it feels to us? But how do we decide what is a negative result and what is a positive result? Is killing someone negative? I presume (and hope) that Mormon teachings say yes. But how on Earth can we know that the universe tells us this? I get that. But I don't get how we can know what the universe thinks is a positive direction and what is a negative direction? Do we know by means of what feels right? Or is there some less subjective means of determining what this universal and absolute morality tells us?