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Author | Topic: Divinity of Jesus | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
The bottom line is that a cult like Jehovah Witnesses does not have the right to explain to others on this forum what the Bible says and means concerning the divinity of Jesus. Precisely who made you arbiter of who does or does not have the "right" to interpret the Bible? Peg has every bit as much of a right to post here as you or I do, on whatever topic she pleases - that is, we all have those privileges as granted by Percy, the owner of the forum. What makes Peg's JW interpretation of the Bible less valid than yours? Do I, as an Atheist, not have the "right" to interpret Biblical meaning, simply because I don't hold it to be inerrant or any different from any other "holy" text? Is it now a requirement that any and all Christian posters on this board agree with the interpretations of John 10:10 before they have the "right" to post? Do you really think that other modern Biblical translations have been less altered than the JW Bible? Are you an idiot, or just a bigot?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4980 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Everyone is entitled to give their opinion on any subject they want to here, there's no discrimination.
Maybe you would fit better in one of your JW forums, or in a forum for unbelievers? Maybe you would fit in better to a forum for morons? Really John 10:10, you are one of the least Christ-like people I have ever had read. I worked in a Roman Catholic school for a bit a few years ago and in the entrance hall and in all the classrooms were signs saying 'Let Christ Shine Through You', let me tell you, Christ certainly doesn't shine through you, the hatred for your fellow humans oozes out of every pore in your body. If you are a Christian, then I am the Pope!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
All part of the psychosis Jay. Okay Brian, Why is it a psychosis to believe in the Divinity of Christ? Are you a professional psychologist ? Is belief in Jesus Christ as God come as a man mentioned in professional journals as a mental illness in the United States now ? Why is it a waste of my life to believe in the Divinity of Christ ? What do you propose is a better use of my life than following Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4980 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
We're talking about the Divinity of Jesus here. So am I
Maybe you could kind of work your sympathetic comments into that subject. Sure.
Why is it a mental illness to believe that God was incarnated in Jesus Christ ? Because you have to be mentally ill to ignore the fact that Jesus wasn't a god, or even a Messiah. The evidence is overwhelming, so to ignore it demands a psychological condition.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Because you have to be mentally ill to ignore the fact that Jesus wasn't a god, or even a Messiah. The evidence is overwhelming, so to ignore it demands a psychological condition. So you have an assertion and those who do not believe it are mentally ill? Suppose I am far more convinced by the evidence that Jesus is God become a man. Being more persuaded of the evidence for this is a mental illness in the US ?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4980 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Suppose I am far more convinced by the evidence that Jesus is God become a man. There is no evidence, hence you are mentally ill. Have a quick think about it. You believe in an entity that has never been shown to exist, despite millions of people devoting their lives over thousands of years trying to prove it does exist. You then wish to claim that this not-proven-to-exist entity came to Earth incarnate as a man you do not even know existed or not. The reason this not-proven-to-exist entity came to Earth as a man whom we do not exist or not was to make things okay between this not-proven-to-exist entity and its creation. We are asked to believe that 6000 years ago this not-proven-to-exist entity went in a mood with its creation because its creation 'disobeyed' this entity, despite not knowing the difference between right and wrong, and ate a fruit that imparted knowledge to those that ate it. And the way to make things okay again? Well, this entity demanded that it was sacrificed to itself! And where do we read this story? In a book full of giants, talking snakes, talking donkeys, ghosts, demons, witches, men living for nearly a thousand years, people coming back to life, inaccurate 'historical' narratives, a flat Earth, internal contradictions, textual transmission errors, mulitple conflicting copies, and not to mention that its followers cannot even agree on what it is saying. There's more, but there's enough there to prove my point. Yes, your faith is very sound.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3016 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Precisely who made you arbiter of who does or does not have the "right" to interpret the Bible?
Everyone has the right to post here as much as they like. What I said was "Jehovah Witnesses does not have the right to explain to others on this forum what the Bible says and means concerning the divinity of Jesus." This is because they do not believe in the divivity of Jesus, nor have they entered into a relationship with Him by being "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7. This is necessary to be able to take the things of Jesus and understand them (John 16:13-15). Peg has every bit as much of a right to post here as you or I do, on whatever topic she pleases - that is, we all have those privileges as granted by Percy, the owner of the forum. Unbelievers don't like this because they think they can read and understand the Bible just like they would read and understand a history book or a fiction book. Who made me the arbiter of who does or does not have the "right" to interpret the Bible? The Lord Jesus does for those who are "born again" by the Spirit of God, that's who. Edited by John 10:10, : added word
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3016 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Really John 10:10, you are one of the least Christ-like people I have ever had read.
JW's do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. If you do, why do you think it's OK for someone to explain to others what the Bible means when they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus and that He is Lord? Yes, I am a Christian, and you are not the Pope.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
Everyone has the right to post here as much as they like. What I said was "Jehovah Witnesses does not have the right to explain to others on this forum what the Bible says and means concerning the divinity of Jesus." This is because they do not believe in the divivity of Jesus, nor have they entered into a relationship with Him by being "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7. This is necessary to be able to take the things of Jesus and understand them (John 16:13-15). So you believe. So you interpret. As an unbeliever, why should I believe you over Peg? You're claiming that anyone who does not hold the same beliefs you hold regarding the Bible has no right to explain Biblical interpretation. Why is your belief correct, and others are wrong?
quote: I don't see anything resembling "if you don't believe Jesus is God, you aren't qualified to understand the rest of scripture." There have been many, many Christian traditions, John. Why is your tradition's interpretation a necessary qualification for the "right" to explain scripture? Further, this is a thread regarding the divinity of Jesus. I think it's rather silly of you to make belief in Jesus' divinity a requirement to interpret scripture in a thread discussing that very divinity. That seems rather like ensuring that you will be preaching only to the choir. Perhaps it's you who should seek a forum where you can preach to those who already agree with you, rather than Peg? Peg seems willing to directly debate people who disagree with her, even if she has a tendency to oversimplify and use one-line responses. And I say this as a person who almost always disagrees with nearly everything Peg says around here. If you're unable to debate Peg's arguments, and instead resort to "Jehovah's Witnesses don't know what they're talking about," then your argument must be very weak. Your ad hominem attack on Peg's beliefs carries no weight when discussing whether her beliefs are scripturally justified or logically self-consistent.
Unbelievers don't like this because they think they can read and understand the Bible just like they would read and understand a history book or a fiction book. More like Shakespeare after being translated into a few different languages - the average work of fiction I read doesn't contain archaic language or cultural references, hasn't been erroneously translated and transcribed over the past 2000 years, and hasn't been the subject of heated debate for just as long. But of course, since we agree that interpreting what the Bible is actually saying (meaning what the original author intended for a given passage to say) is not always as cut-and-dry as what it directly and literally says in modern English, what makes yourinterpretation superior to Peg's?
Who made me the arbiter of who does or does not have the "right" to interpret the Bible? The Lord Jesus does for those who "born again" by the Spirit of God, that's who. Really? Did you get some sort of certificate for that? Did Jesus Himself write "John 10:10 gets to decide who is correctly interpreting the Bible, and anyone who disagrees is wrong?" Do you have some way to back up your assertion that you have this divine authority, or are you just a self-righteous coward who's afraid to engage with Peg in an honest debate on the merits of argument and evidence, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks?
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
There is no evidence, hence you are mentally ill. Thanks, you just provided me with some more good evidence to the claims of the Lord Jesus Christ. Your obsessed and bigoted remark leads me to believe that I must be on the right track to believe in Christ. Your attitude is very similar to that of the man who authored 13 of the 27 New Testament documents - Saul of Tarsus who being obsessed with destroying the Christian church also breathed out his vehement disbelief with threats and insults. Your obsession certainly also seems reminiscient of the maddened mob reaction of unbelief to Christ in the Gospels.
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before you." (John 15:18) You needn't go into the other question as to what you have that would be a better use of my life and time. You've already indirectly answered that question for me.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
From the Britannica entry on Delusion (psychology):
quote: Many Christian beliefs are logically absurd and are supported by no objective evidence - many, in fact, directly contradict objective evidence. This means that, so far as psychology is concerned, those beliefs are delusional. Religion typically get's a free pass on no greater merit than simply being religion. It's an arbitrary exclusion - if that arbitrary line is not observed, many Christian beliefs qualify as delusional. Personally, I don't like throwing that one around. Accusing people of being mentally ill, accurate or not, doesn't tend to help a discussion progress. But then, whether religious beliefs are symptoms of mental illness or not is not the topic. Perhaps a new thread is in order?
Thanks, you just provided me with some more good evidence to the claims of the Lord Jesus Christ. Your obsessed and bigoted remark leads me to believe that I must be on the right track to believe in Christ. It's very interesting that you count opposition to your views as evidence that your beliefs are correct. Can you imagine if we carried that to other areas of our lives? Surely, every time you tell me that the Immaterial Pink Unicorn or the Flying Spaghetti Monster are absurd and do not exist, your persecution of my beliefs proves that Her Pink Eminence and His Holy Noodliness do in fact exist. Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You believe in an entity that has never been shown to exist, despite millions of people devoting their lives over thousands of years trying to prove it does exist. You then wish to claim that this not-proven-to-exist entity came to Earth incarnate as a man you do not even know existed or not. The reason this not-proven-to-exist entity came to Earth as a man whom we do not exist or not was to make things okay between this not-proven-to-exist entity and its creation. We are asked to believe that 6000 years ago this not-proven-to-exist entity went in a mood with its creation because its creation 'disobeyed' this entity, despite not knowing the difference between right and wrong, and ate a fruit that imparted knowledge to those that ate it. And the way to make things okay again? Well, this entity demanded that it was sacrificed to itself! And where do we read this story? In a book full of giants, talking snakes, talking donkeys, ghosts, demons, witches, men living for nearly a thousand years, people coming back to life, inaccurate 'historical' narratives, a flat Earth, internal contradictions, textual transmission errors, mulitple conflicting copies, and not to mention that its followers cannot even agree on what it is saying. There's more, but there's enough there to prove my point. If you're waiting for me to say "My Brian, you took the words right out of my mouth!" I wasn't going to say that. The evidence for Christ being God incarnate is for me adaquate. And proof is different from persuasion. And I don't claim that I can prove the matter which openly is taught as one of faith, with mathematical certainty. But most importantly I would state that proof is not persuasion. And where God has mercy upon me to submit my will to the evidence presented to me others, like yourself, may still be in a state of hardening your will so as to keep Jesus out of your lives. The resurrection of Christ is a well evidenced historical event. Probably your attempts to discredit the evidence would be filled with "perhapses," "proboblies," "maybies," and all manner of ludicrous conspiracies parroted from skeptical websites. I don't want my thought processes damaged by these twisted alternative conspiracy thoeries. I don't think it is mentally healthy to insist on so many possible alternatives to the more obvious. Christ was Who He said He was and acted like it. It is less credible to me that some people concocted such a fictional character. And no one has ever convinced me of sensible motivating reasons they would have had to do so. Not in the case of Jesus. Political reasons, sexual reasons, financial reasons, even religious reasons all fall short. I don't think people would concoct such a person as Jesus even if they were able to do so. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3016 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
So you believe. So you interpret. As an unbeliever, why should I believe you over Peg? You're claiming that anyone who does not hold the same beliefs you hold regarding the Bible has no right to explain Biblical interpretation. Why is your belief correct, and others are wrong?
100% of true Christians since the time of Christ believe that Jesus is divine, is Lord, and one must be "born again" by the Spirit of God to see and enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:3-7). Those that do not may think they are Christians, but according to Jesus' words, they are not. The only work man can do to enter into the kingdom of God is to believe in Him whom God has sent to provide salvation for man (John 6:28-29). Your arguments are against the words of the Lord Jesus, not with me.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
100% of true Christians since the time of Christ believe that Jesus is divine, is Lord, and one must be "born again" by the Spirit of God to see and enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:3-7). Those that do not may think they are Christians, but according to Jesus' words, they are not. The only work man can do to enter into the kingdom of God is to believe in Him whom God has sent to provide salvation for man (John 6:28-29). Your arguments are against the words of the Lord Jesus, not with me. Such a shame Jesus isn't here to clear up the matter. All we have is the Bible - a collection of texts noted more than anything else for its flexible interpretation. The issue here is that you're condemning Peg for putting forth what she understands the Bible to say based on what you understand the Bible to say. If you want to assert that Jesus is divine, support it with the Bible and engage Peg in debate. Accusing Peg of belonging to a cult and not being a "true Christian" is nothing more than an ad hominem attack - you're attacking Peg personally, not refuting her position. That's something you're doing, John. I haven't taken a side regarding whether Jesus was divine according to the Bible or not (it's mostly irrelevant to me as a nonbeliever). I haven't commented on Jesus words - the only Biblical reference I made was a quote of a passage you referred to, since you didn't quote the text yourself. My entrance into this debate is simply to note that your dismissal of Peg's argument with an ad hominem attack on her specific Christian sect instead of actually addressing the points of her argument themselves is dishonest, petty, and pathetic. I may as well dismiss everything John 10:10 says on a similarly arbitrary basis. I'll just label you a nutcase, and therefore everything you say is irrelevant. You don't have the right to instruct others on Biblical interpretation, John, because you're a nutcase. How does it feel to have your arguments completely ignored, your assertions dismissed without evidence, argument, or rebuttal? Perhaps I should do this more often - I get to declare victory without ever actually having to do any intellectual work, like supporting my arguments or even reading what my opponent says.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Such a shame Jesus isn't here to clear up the matter. All we have is the Bible - a collection of texts noted more than anything else for its flexible interpretation. This is a matter of the availabity of Jesus. Some people say that Jesus is not available. Others of us do not believe this. Rather we consider His teaching. 1.) He says that He will be with His believers even unto the consummation of the age. His final words in Matthew's Gospel: "And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20) Neither Matthew or John close their respective Gospels with the impression that Jesus has "left". Luke and Mark in balacing contrast record His ascension. 2.) John records the questions His disciples asked Him about perculiar words. How is it He will manifest Himself to His disciples but not to the world?
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21) Jesus assures future generations that He will manifest Himself to those who love Him. (This is the Bible Study Forum). Judas asks how this could be:
"Judas, not Iscariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (14:23) He will manifest Himself to His lovers yet not to the unbelieving world by this means: He and His Father as the Divine WE will come to his lover and make an abode with him. 3.) John is careful in his gospel to convey that this coming and indwelling of Jesus to future generations of disciples is by means of the Holy Spirit who is Christ in His pneumatic form: Jesus teaches that this relationship of the Holy Spirit being IN the disciples is actually more expedient for them.
"But I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go I will send Him to you. (John 16:7) Christ teaches He will be available as the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to dwell in the lovers of Christ. Paul confirms that this life giving Spirit is Christ Himself:
"... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) We should think of this giving of life, divine life, as the giving of God to man. And it is simultaneous with the Father and the Son coming as the Divine "WE" to make an abode with the lover of Jesus. 4.) Jesus teaches that the sending of this Holy Spirit is His own coming:
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, [Even] the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (14:16-18) The world cannot see this Comforter. But the disciples know Him because He is with them at that time. And He WILL be IN them soon: -" ... but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you." The one who was physically with them will soon have a closer relationship with them, a more expedient relationship with them. He will be in them. It is as Jesus became "a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) that He could transform His relationship from being BESIDE His disciples physically to being IN His disciples imparting divine life to them and manifesting Himself to them. And as life giving Spirit, the "another Comforter" who is "the Spirit of reality" and "the Holy Spirit" that Christ is available today and will be with His disciples "all the days, even unto the consummation of the age." Notice that the "He" in verse 17 becomes the "I" in verse 18:
" ... He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans. I am coming to you." (This is a Bible Study). We are thankful to the Apostle John for recording these aspects of Christ's teaching. And the bottom line here is that though the world does not see Jesus, He is available to his lovers as "life giving Spirit" to indwell them abiding in them, and remaining with them until the consummation of the church age. Actually, He will be with them longer than that. For the Comforter, the Spirit of reality will be with them [b]"forever" (v.16):
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever." (John 14:16) Jesus is available today. That is today. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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