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Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Pick and Choose Fundamentalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Devilsadvocate writes: If God is not wrong in ordering the murder babies and children, that means it is right or 'good' to murder babies and children. Correct? his laws against murder would indicate otherwise
DevilsAdvocate writes: So the children and infants are bloodely butchered because there parents choose to fight for there communities/civilization? i see what you and everyone else here is saying about this issue. Like i said, i dont have an answer and i dont understand it myself, but perhaps we dont know all the circumstances. Perhaps God was putting those children out of their misery...perhaps he killed them as a kindness rather then leave them to perish after their parents had been killed seriously, i wish I had something more solid, but i dont. The matter is in Gods hands and I would like to think that he has something up his sleve. Does he?? i dont know that either but i do know that he acts as a righteous judge, he is merciful and he shows it, and he doesnt act out of spite.
Devilsadvocate writes: Do you actually believe this? You really worry me Peg! well its happened before...,God sent the prophet Jonah to tell the ancient city of Ninevah (city of bloodshed) that they were going to be destroyed for all the evil acts they were engaged in and when the people repented, God spared them. So when God sees that repentance is shown, he is merciful. He's proved that.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
DevilsAdvocate writes: (i.e. defending the Biblical mandate by God to murder innocent children and infants while at the same time advocating and promoting the "pro-life" anti-abortion movement). In other words she is enmeshed in a form of moral cognitive dissonance. OMG seriously you guys need to take up a hobbie of some sort. So i'm a sociopath now LOL Im not in anyway condoning the murder of innocent children. But im not going to say that God was in the wrong. We know a lot about the cannanites and their depraved society. If we knew of a society that was behaving that way today, we'd be in their with guns blazing. We dropped a bomb on japan in a city full of innocent civilians for the sake of ending a war...how do you know that the destruction of the cannanites was not for a similar purpose???
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Taz writes: But the last time we ignored and dismissed people like peg, tens of millions of people died horrible deaths as a result. Whole families were systematically gassed to death because a group of people decided they had some kind of divine mandate to exterminate an entire race of people. Gee, sound familiar? Hitler claimed to have a divine mandate??? really???
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Peepul Member (Idle past 5038 days) Posts: 206 Joined: |
Hitler claimed to have a divine mandate??? really??? I'm afraid so.
I believe today that my conduct is in accordancewith the will of the Almighty Creator."[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 46] And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God." [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p.174] What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 125]
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Actually I was defending you Peg. I don't think you are a sociopath just naive.
Peg writes: Hitler claimed to have a divine mandate??? really??? Yes, really! I know this is probably off-topic but I thought this statement needed an answer. Here are a few quotes from Adolph to help you recover from your naivity.
Adolph Hitler in Mein Kamf writes: I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. Adolph Hitler in Mein Kamf writes: What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. Adolph Hitler in Mein Kamf writes: The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will. Adolph Hitler in a 1933 speach writes: May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space. Adolph Hitler in a 1933 prayer writes: We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland. Adolph Hitler in a 1936 speach at the Reichstag writes: I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: Myself writes: If God is not wrong in ordering the murder babies and children, that means it is right or 'good' to murder babies and children. Correct? his laws against murder would indicate otherwise PEG, I will spell it out for you: DOES GOD FORBID EVERYONE TO MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE, BABIES, CHILDREN, ETC? YES OR NO? DID GOD HIMSELF ORDER THE KILLING OF BABIES AND INNOCENT CHILDREN. YES OR NO? How is that for a double standard, hyporcitical "do as I say not as I do" relative moral system. You really cannot follow a logical argument can you?
Peg writes: i see what you and everyone else here is saying about this issue. Like i said, i dont have an answer and i dont understand it myself, but perhaps we dont know all the circumstances. What circumstances allow the following to happen:
Ezekiel 9:5-7 writes: Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it." As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city." Please, I am all ears.
Peg writes: So when God sees that repentance is shown, he is merciful. He's proved that. This is just what you are reading out of a 2000+ year old book which has no more credibility than the Illiad and the Odessey. Why do you put so much faith and trust into something that has so little evidence to back it up? Are there any corroborating contemporary stories of Jonah or any other Old Testament character? I am sure some could have been embellshed stories of possibly real people with all the miracles and supernatural events thrown in by later scribes to help propogate these stories but to say that they are 100% true and inerrant is totally baseless conjecture. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: unlike dropping a bomb on a densely inhabited city for instance. Which many people to this day have a hard time rationalizing or accepting as being the best way to have handled that situation. I don't think there is anyone in the decision process of designing the atom bomb who had no qualms about the decision we had to make to end the war. Many of these same people suffered mental breakdowns and am sure struggled with this decision the rest of there lives. The choice was choosing the lesser of two evils. Whether it was right or wrong is highly debatable as I don't think the terms 'right' and 'wrong' really make since in this situation. It was more a matter of the fight for survival and freedom. This was not the case of the Israellites and the Canaanites. It was the Israelites who invaded the land of Canaan and who initiated the hostility, not vice versa. Besides, God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Humans are not. How difficult would it be for your god to have moved the Israelites to a location where there were no other people to slaughter. How hard would have it been to show up in a burning bush, etc to the Canaanites and show them his ominpotent and "kind" nature and show them the error of there ways instead of bloodely massacaring them and their children. Your analogy falls flat. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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themasterdebator Inactive Member |
God directed Israel to use warfare to take possession of the land that he himself designated as their inheritance and to execute people who carried on depraved practices and defied God. (Deut. 7:1, 2, 5; 9:5; Lev. 18:24, 25) But there are instances when he spared the lives of some of the people who Isreal was warring against eg Rahab and to the Gibeonites (Josh. 2:9-13; 9:24-27) ...he also laid down rules regarding how warfare was to be carried out that the isrealites had to obey. so it wasnt discriminant warfare...unlike dropping a bomb on a densely inhabited city for instance. Blame shifting and question dodging, but your right. People have a chance of surviving a bob that is dropped on a densely populated city. If the soldiers follow up by going into the city and systematically murdering everyone it is much worse.
They erected 'sacred poles' which were phallic symbols where gross sexual depravity was carried out. (Ex 23:24; 34:12, 13; Nu 33:52; De 7:5) Incest, sodomy, and bestiality were common place. The goddesses Ashtoreth, Asherah, and Anath are presented in an Egyptian text as both mother-goddesses and as sacred prostitutes. Their worship involved mass sex orgies and prostitution. These goddesses promoted sadistic violence and warfare who praised the slaughter of men by being decorated with pieces of mens slaughtered bodies while she joyfully wades in their blood. The figurines found in Palestine are of a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs. Would you want to be one of these canaanites children? I think God was doing the right thing. i see what you and everyone else here is saying about this issue. Like i said, i dont have an answer and i dont understand it myself, but perhaps we dont know all the circumstances. Perhaps God was putting those children out of their misery...perhaps he killed them as a kindness rather then leave them to perish after their parents had been killed seriously, i wish I had something more solid, but i dont. The matter is in Gods hands and I would like to think that he has something up his sleve. Does he?? i dont know that either but i do know that he acts as a righteous judge, he is merciful and he shows it, and he doesnt act out of spite. 1. Are you really saying an all powerful diety could not do anything better than butcher all the innocent women and children? Is he powerless to provide a means of care for them? An allpowerful being has no excuse for doing something like this. 2. How do you "know" he acts as a righteous judge when situations like this pop up? Is he only merciful when the people in question bow to his will? Because thats what is sounds like with your other example. Unless the people fully bow to the will of God, he has no problem killing all of them. Thats not mercy. Mercy would have been sparing the Caananites who did nothing wrong. Or those minimally involved in evil practices. 2 wrongs dont make a right. 3. Your characterization of the Caananites is incredibly racist. You are assuming every single Caananite is completely involved and devoted to these "evil" practices. As with any society, people would have different levels of involvement. Some would be completely devoted, some would simply be following the crowd, and some would have virtually no involvement(Children, mentally ill, etc) yet each group receives the same punishment, death. This is neither merciful or just.
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themasterdebator Inactive Member |
Im not in anyway condoning the murder of innocent children. But im not going to say that God was in the wrong. We know a lot about the cannanites and their depraved society. If we knew of a society that was behaving that way today, we'd be in their with guns blazing. So your not going to say God was in the wrong for murdering large numbers of infants, just want to make that clear.
We dropped a bomb on japan in a city full of innocent civilians for the sake of ending a war...how do you know that the destruction of the cannanites was not for a similar purpose???
no, because the Israelites had already won the war. God decided to punish them for losing with slaughter of everyone in the city. You can't go into a city and slaughter every man woman and child until you have taken the city in the first place. Furthermore, that would not condone an all powerful beings actions. If GOd is all powerful, he could have ended the war without the death of large numbers of innocents. The United States is not all powerful and took the actions during wartime. They are not comparable.
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Hill Billy Member (Idle past 5374 days) Posts: 163 From: The hills Joined: |
Brian, you said
It’s having these answers that has led to the bewilderment.
Ya, now, if you had the correct answers the bewilderment would vanish.
I don’t recall saying I had problem. be⋅wil⋅dered completely puzzled or confused; perplexed.
puzzled to be perplexed or confused. to ponder or study over some perplexing problem or matter. Guess I misunderstood.
Brian writes:
Then :
I don’t believe in God?I blame humans too
Anybody else wondering?......... you blame humans too....too?.......TOO??.... So, if not GOD then who? Other than humans, who do you blame? Can't argue with this. I think I read somethin like that in the bible.
Whereabouts?
Right here Dude.
John 3:21....But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God."
You know, like apologizing when wrong, that would be doing what is true.
My observation : Based on this definition, decent people seem to have been pretty much mutated right outta the gene pool.
Brian writes:
I wonder if your findings would be supported by independent peer review..........By your neighbors.
Maybe in your vicinity but not here.Brian writes:
Hey, thanks for bringing us back on topic. No, there’s no special dispensation for childrenThere is actually, and there is a definite demarcation point. Old enough to hear, believe, repent, and confess. That's the cut off. Mark 16 16, Mathew 28:19, ect.. Before that, no worries. Innocence gets you an all access pass. And this brings us to the real topic of this thread. How can the slaughter of innocent children be justified? I'll be back shortly The years tell what the days never knew.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
DevilsAdvocate writes: DOES GOD FORBID EVERYONE TO MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE, BABIES, CHILDREN, ETC? YES OR NO? DID GOD HIMSELF ORDER THE KILLING OF BABIES AND INNOCENT CHILDREN. YES OR NO? Yes and Yes Do world rulers on one hand work to save the lives of their citizens, and on the other hand go to war to kill lives of enemies?
DevilsAdvocate writes: What circumstances allow the following to happen: Ezekiel 9:5-7 writes: Please, I am all ears.
civil disobedience. Authorities have the right to act when their citizens are not acting in harmony with the laws. God was the lawmaker and he was the one who the people had to answer to. In this case, it was the Isrealites themselves who God had called to account for their actions. They had begun to act in the same manner as the nations around them and because God is consistent and righteous, he judged them the same way he judged and dealt with them the same way he did the cannanites.
DevilsAdvocate writes: This is just what you are reading out of a 2000+ year old book which has no more credibility than the Illiad and the Odessey. Why do you put so much faith and trust into something that has so little evidence to back it up? Are there any corroborating contemporary stories of Jonah or any other Old Testament character? I am sure some could have been embellshed stories of possibly real people with all the miracles and supernatural events thrown in by later scribes to help propogate these stories but to say that they are 100% true and inerrant is totally baseless conjecture. the bible has enough coherency to prove itself true, there is enough archeological evidence to prove the bible true, and there is enough consistency to prove it true. If you dont believe the bible is true, why cling to these stories about a God who killed cannanite children as a reason to denounce him. Its like me going on a crusade against mary poppins because i dont like the way she babysat.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4980 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Ya, now, if you had the correct answers the bewilderment would vanish. If I had all the correct answers then maybe it would. My bewilderment is at why anyone can take the case for Jesus seriously, it is so obvious that He was no messiah, and certainly no god. When something is as obvious as this, and people cannot see it, then it has to cause bewilderment.
Anybody else wondering? ......... you blame humans too....too?.......TOO??.... So, if not GOD then who? Other than humans, who do you blame? Guess you misunderstood again. In the previous post YOU blamed humans, I also blame humans but for different reasons. Thus, you blame humans and I blame them too.
John 3:21....But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." Don’t see what this has to do with being honest? You post a quote from a noted liar and it’s meant to support honesty?
There is actually, and there is a definite demarcation point. Old enough to hear, believe, repent, and confess. That's the cut off. Mark 16 16, Mathew 28:19, ect.. These verses have nothing to do with children, they are about baptism. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Before that, no worries. Innocence gets you an all access pass. If only the Bible said what you wanted it to say then maybe evil Yahweh might not be that bad.
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Hill Billy Member (Idle past 5374 days) Posts: 163 From: The hills Joined: |
Brian
I just stopped in for a minute but I couldn't resist.
Brian writes:
I think if you had even some of the correct answers it would do the trick, but this is what drew me in:
If I had all the correct answers then maybe it would.
My bewilderment is at why anyone can't take the case for Jesus seriously, it is so obvious that He was messiah, and certainly GOD. When something is as obvious as this, and people cannot see it, then it has to cause bewilderment.
There.Now I corrected you. That was fun.......quick and easy. Gotta go.Later dude.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: Myself writes: DOES GOD FORBID EVERYONE TO MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE, BABIES, CHILDREN, ETC? YES OR NO? DID GOD HIMSELF ORDER THE KILLING OF BABIES AND INNOCENT CHILDREN. YES OR NO? Yes and Yes Do world rulers on one hand work to save the lives of their citizens, and on the other hand go to war to kill lives of enemies? So you think it is good and right that God murders innocent children and babies (is God not all-good as well as all-powerful)? How does that work in your discombobulated brain with promoting pro-life anti-abortion causes? So are you saying since Hitler, Po Pot and other mass murderurs ordered and coordinated the deliberate massacring of innocent men, women and children that it is ok if 'God' does it too? Please elaborate.
Peg writes: civil disobedience. Civil disobedience demands the slaughter of children? Wow, are you sure you are living in the right society?
Peg writes: Authorities have the right to act when their citizens are not acting in harmony with the laws. God was the lawmaker and he was the one who the people had to answer to. So Po Pot, Hitler, Stalin, the Hebrew god of the Bible, etc have the right to kill innocent people when they disobey there laws no matter how horendous?
Peg writes: In this case, it was the Isrealites themselves who God had called to account for their actions. They had begun to act in the same manner as the nations around them and because God is consistent and righteous, he judged them the same way he judged and dealt with them the same way he did the cannanites And that makes it correct?
Peg writes: If you dont believe the bible is true, why cling to these stories about a God who killed cannanite children as a reason to denounce him. Its like me going on a crusade against mary poppins because i dont like the way she babysat Because no one is basing there entire moral systems and forcing people through legislative and other political means to follow the disciplinary practices of Mary Poppins. However, that is not the case in the US and elsewhere where the disasterous results of religious fundamentalism trumps rationality and universal equal rights. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Ezekiel 9 is part of a vision (Chapters 8-11). From what I can tell in Chapter 11 the leaders were the ones killing the innocent. I haven't studied this in depth, but from straight reading it isn't a good section to use to point out double standards. One would have to sort out the meaning of the vision first.
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