Sin

Hi Phage, I was expecting someone ignorant of LDS Doctrine to include D&C 76 in the discussion."Why?", might you ask.That is exactly what happens when you google search "mormon hell" in most search engines. So, most individuals immediately see the D & C passage and say: AH HAH!They don't usually take the time to read this tidbit:

quote:

---

D&C 76:81
And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament

---

This passage obviously is referring to the place that verse 84 is also referring to.What's silly is that most individuals see this statement of Hell, and immediately think of the horrifying place that most Christians speak of when mentioning the word Hell.According to LDS Doctrine though, the Telestial kingdom is not such a bad place to be. In fact the following verse describes "the glory" of the telestial kingdom.

quote:

---

D&C 76:89
And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding

---

Doesn't quite fit the mold of what the mainstream version of hell is, now does it?In fact, to be completely honest, nowhere in LDS Doctrine does such a place commonly described as hell (fire, brimstone, devastation) exist for those who have not knowingly volunteered for it. These individuals are known as Sons of Perdition.They have been revealed a Knowledge of God's existence, and still knowingly rebel. Their suffering exists though in the knowledge that they are separated from God's presence by their own doing. They have no one else to blame.------------------------------- You may think that you know what you are talking about, but you apparently don't.The LDS faith is of the sentiment that Sin is really just the things that keep us from becoming the best we possibly can be. Sin is not something that God created, because sin predates God.In LDS doctrine, God can even sin, but he doesn't, because he has reached the epitome of human achievement. He is exalted. Need I quote, "As man is, God once was"?To put it even further, God is not even known to be all powerful in a complete sense of the word. We just know he is the controller of our universe, and we don't even know much about that other than the fact that even He has to follow rules. We can learn more about Him though if we continually strive for it.This is why so many "Mormons" have a deep respect for knowledge. We believe God is really the greatest intelligence there is, and we want to be like that too, someday.

Hi Straggler,I know you were writing to Bluejay in your post, but I kind of felt like replying as well. I put these two questions together because they are pretty much the same.The way sin can really be determined (or so we "Mormons" like to think) is by how the action affects our:
a) personal progression
b) development of community with others
b) ability to maintain control over ourselves
c) impact on the progression of others toward similar goalsObviously if something is a detriment to these things, we usually view them as being a universally accepted "sin".In my own personal experience I have found that individuals who do not maintain control over themselves (as best they can) usually cause the most problems in society.This list isn't really all inclusive, as I am limited ATM, so please forgive any shortcomings on my part in the provision of details. I don't think you are really going to find a "Mormon" who actually knows what this objective morality is, as know one here really knows what it is. We believe we understand parts and pieces, but we don't really KNOW.This is an interesting statement though, and must be taken into account if an objective morality exists.The fact of the matter is though, that we humans are still bound by our subjectivity. Objective morality can exist, whilst people still exercise subjective reasoning.To put it another way, the "Objective Morality" of the Universe is essentially what the most effective means of achieving healthy human growth and satisfaction is. The trick is working together as a team to achieve that.

No one really decides at all, nor is it obvious. In fact, not even God decides what is or isn't, as these detrimental choices pre-existed even Him.Take for instance this scenario:Bob and Jane are driving on the freeway. Bob decides to drive really fast, loses control of the vehicle, and both Bob and Jane die.Now, we can take several views on what happened here, a few of which would be:
A) The end result of Bob and Jane dying was God's will.B) Bob's choice in driving really fast set up conditions in which the probability of his, and Jane's demise dramatically increased. These natural consequences might have been avoided if Bob had decided to obey traffic laws. God also had nothing to do with any of these consequences.C) Bob didn't really have control over his impulse to drive fast, as he was bound by the chemistry within his own body to react that exact way, in that exact scenario.According to Mormon Doctrine, B is what happened. In fact, according to other life philosophies B is what happens.I chose this scenario because it most obviously illustrates how morality is viewed from LDS (Mormon) eyes. It's not about what you, I, or God determines what is beneficial or detrimental, because no party actually determines what is, or is not. It simply is. If you do something to fry your brain (severe drug abuse) how intellectually capable are you going to be in learning advanced physics, should you live forever?The way I like to put it is this:
"Stop worrying so much about what, or if, there is a list in the sky of what you should or shouldn't do. Help others reach happiness, and you yourself will reach happpiness. If Happiness to you is hurting others, well, I got news for you bub... you're not going to make it far" Simple really. We won't ever really know, without experience. I would imagine that most of us do not really know how deeply the consequences of our actions can go.The LDS (Mormon) perspective is that of a never ending one. If you continue committing actions that are counter-productive toward intellectual, and community progression, then given eternity, you will self destruct. No one does, not even God. It is what it is. You either reach it, or you don't. All we can do is our best to reach it by following the simple rules handed down to us, such as loving one another, and honoring our commitments made to one another. Nothing is DEEMED sinful by anyone. There are guidelines to avoid negative results, but there are no real commands made from on high.Just to help a little. Like I said earlier. It's all about what your tendencies would cause to happen over an infinite amount of time.

Sorry Phage, but the verses you quote are an obvious detraction from what is being described.It's the same thing that occurs in a sentence like this:
"John is living in Maryland, which means he has to pay all his states taxes to Maryland. John must also abide by the laws of Maryland. John was born in Massachusetts but moved to Maryland when he was 12 with his parents."The last sentence doesn't really describe John's current state, but his past state. This is the same for verses 105 and 106. They are actually describing that the same people who will be in spirit prison for a thousand years, will be in the Telestial Kingdom. Phage, this is known as a Strawman argument. Do you know what those are? If so, then what is your excuse for using one?

Whew! It's a good thing you said that, else I would have fallen asleep in the middle of reading your reply This example I provided was more a demonstration that people who have no understanding of LDS Doctrine typically revert to a search engine for a quick answer. The problem is, rather than actually reading and comprehending what is being said in the scriptures, they simply cherry pick the verses that describe Spirit Prison, and act as though it is one of the Kingdoms of Glory.These sort of things cannot be allowed to slide in intellectual discussion. Exactly, which is what I have explained to Phage. It is also why I was trying to emphasize to Phage that he may was misinformed in what those two verses actually were in light of the surrounding text. ROFL. That's a good one.Sidenote: I remember reading in a newspaper article a comment on one of the earlier big LDS movies (can't remember the names, but the ones with the missionary guy who gets ditched by his wife because she decides to leave the church). Anyway, the article said that the way members were portrayed made a Star Trek convention look about as nerdy as Mr T.Take care.

So I suppose when LDS Scripture says a person feels a "burning in their bosom" from the "fire of the holy ghost"... it is really saying they are on fire?Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance on LDS doctrine. So when I quote verse 81, and correlate it with verse 84, you think I am talking about verse 105 and 106?I wonder about you sometimes Phage. You remind me of the proverbial trigger happy cowboy, all too eager to make enemies, when he could have had allies. BZZZTTT! Awww... and he wasn't even close. Tell him what he could have won Alex. Well, our contestant had the chance to read and comprehend texts, and intellectually discuss their meaning, winning respect and honor. Sadly, he decided that was not what he wanted, and hastily came to an inappropriate conclusion.Edited by Michamus, : inserted last line.Edited by Michamus, : typo

Perhaps it is poetic language, just as it is when mentioning what occurs when "prompted by the spirit". I would imagine the suffering of eternal fire would be more a statement of their extreme sorrow at where their actions have led them. ROFL
You know, it's pretty sad when an individual has to break things down "grade school style" in order for the opposing viewer to understand what is being said.I highly doubt you are really that dim though, and this is merely your feeble attempt at providing yet another straw-man argument. ROFL!!!So, your excuse is that you mistakenly lumped 105 and 106 with the rest of the verse as being the same place. Then, when I respond with merely stating that 81, and 84 ARE referring to the same place, you somehow think (once again mistakenly) that I am referring to 105 and 106 as well... because YOU mistakenly lumped them together?Wow... that's a solid cop out, if ever I've seen one. ROFL! Projecting much? You ever hear of this buddhist proverb? When you point a finger at another, 5 more point back at you.You have had to resort to this method of "debate" with bluejay from the very beginning, due to your OBVIOUS misinformation on LDS Doctrine. I have merely shown you what your "debate style" seems like on the receiving end. Unsurprisingly you don't like it, and have decided to hypocritically utilize "forum guidelines" in a feeble attempt to make me submit to your will.So to sum this up. You messed up, refused to admit it, and are now trying to point the blame elsewhere... Given your history on such actions, I see no point in further discussion with you, as it will only continue in a downward trend.

ROFL! That's a good one. Princess Bride is a great film. I wasn't entirely sure if it was popular in our ward alone until now

dupe postEdited by Michamus, : dupe post

That "prophetic statement" you made was toward Bluejay and can be found here: Message 62.Not really a prophecy if you prophesied about the wrong person, now is it?This conversation has ended. Move along.

They weren't. You are asking me a question that I honestly feel no one on this Earth knows the answer to at this time.I don't know how to determine what is sinful or proper. I do believe we have some guidelines in existence within the LDS Church that, if followed, may lead us to the next level in which we may learn what it takes to get to the next level. I don't even really know what the next level really is, or if I will even achieve it.All I can do is follow the dictates of my own conscience, just like all (wo)men do. Whether we realize it or not, this is how all our moral decisions are made, even if we are reflecting on the writings of others (The Bible, Book of Mormon, Koran, Torah, Bhaga Vita, etc.) I think I addressed this in my statement above. Killing a person is just as subject to circumstance, as any other moral decision is.LDS Teachings would agree that the taking of life, without just cause. Just cause is usually defined as the killing of an individual who is intent on killing you or your family at the time. This obviously isn't all inclusive, including a good portion of the LDS memberships' cause for justification of killing a person including murderers.This doesn't mean that there isn't an ultimate morality that exists as the epitome of human achievement. I don't know how we can KNOW, but if I figure it out, I will do my best to let you know Hmmm. I really don't know if there is a less subjective way for us to determine this in our current state.Sorry if I'm not really that much of a help, but you are really asking questions I don't have any true knowledge, evidence, or answers for.