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Author Topic:   Pick and Choose Fundamentalism
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 211 of 384 (515235)
07-16-2009 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Peg
07-16-2009 4:21 AM


Re: Double standards?
Do world rulers on one hand work to save the lives of their citizens, and on the other hand go to war to kill lives of enemies?
So, if I determine that the family across the street is an "enemy" I'm ok if I decide to run my car over their 3 month old?
In this case, it was the Isrealites themselves who God had called to account for their actions. They had begun to act in the same manner as the nations around them and because God is consistent and righteous, he judged them the same way he judged and dealt with them the same way he did the cannanites.
But God doesn't discern. How many pople in a vast society have to disobey to qualify the entire society for being punished? Again, if the family across the street has 5 people: 2 Adults over 40, two teenagers and the aforementioned 3 month old. If the teenagers run riot, does that make it ok to kill the entire family? Or should we limit our punishment to only those who are actually doing wrong? Or do you think the fact that the parents didn't kill their own children mean they were evil by proxy? And still, what does the 3 month old have to do with this at all? Does god expect all babies to be like Stewie and build a ray gun to kill their family if they act up?
the bible has enough coherency to prove itself true, there is enough archeological evidence to prove the bible true, and there is enough consistency to prove it true.
The Bible lacks coherency...and even if it didn't, coherency doesn't prove a story true. All good fiction is coherent, otherwise no one would read it.
There is enough archeological evidence to prove the Bible false, but even if there were reams of archeology present, that wouldn't prove the entire Bible true, it would merely show that the writers of the Bible weren't dumb. They wanted people to believe the stories, so they used real places and people rather than making shit up...like L. Ron Hubbard...
There is some consistency, but there are a lot of contradictions as well, but again, you're three for three here, consistency doesn't prove something true. All good fiction is consistent, otherwise no one would read it.
What proves something true? Evidence. What does evidence prove? The specific claim is true, not an entire body of work. You seem to think that if a person proves one word out of every 100 is right, then the other 99 must be, but that's just poor reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 4:21 AM Peg has not replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 384 (515236)
07-16-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Hill Billy
07-16-2009 9:28 AM


civil disobedience.
Authorities have the right to act when their citizens are not acting in harmony with the laws. God was the lawmaker and he was the one who the people had to answer to.
In this case, it was the Isrealites themselves who God had called to account for their actions. They had begun to act in the same manner as the nations around them and because God is consistent and righteous, he judged them the same way he judged and dealt with them the same way he did the cannanites.
I would prefer if you addressed the numbered points, they each mean different arguments. grouping my entire post as a whole does not accurately represent my viewpoints.
The behavior is not consistent with God punishing those offending him. The Caananites had been following these practices for hundreds of years. If God had been offended by them he would have properly punished all perpetrators over this long period of time. Yet none of the generations prior to the Israelites arrival suffered the wrath of God for their pagan practices. So if God is really trying to punish those offending him, he is missing a large number of offenders. Many Caananites commited offensive practices yet died peaceful deaths because God had not decided to purge them yet. That is in addition to all the other societies which had similar practices yet never faced the wrath of God(Greeks and several Indian societies)
The Israelite Priests however, do have reason they would want to kill all the Caananites. It would strike fear into their enemies they would fight future wars against(important if you are not all powerful, but if you are it serves no purpose), they could simply want revenge(How dare the Caananites defend the land they have owned? Its ours because God says so).
The point of this argument being that while the events may have happened, that does not mean they were sanctioned by an all powerful diety. Killing the caananites in this manner is not an effective way to punish those offending Gods will, but are useful for the high priests and leaders of the Israelites. Saying they are sanctioned by God just makes the acts much easier to commit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Hill Billy, posted 07-16-2009 9:28 AM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 10:49 PM themasterdebator has not replied
 Message 217 by Brian, posted 07-17-2009 5:13 AM themasterdebator has not replied
 Message 222 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 10:14 AM themasterdebator has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 213 of 384 (515270)
07-16-2009 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by DevilsAdvocate
07-16-2009 10:55 AM


Re: Double standards?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So you think it is good and right that God murders innocent children and babies (is God not all-good as well as all-powerful)? How does that work in your discombobulated brain with promoting pro-life anti-abortion causes?
So are you saying since Hitler, Po Pot and other mass murderurs ordered and coordinated the deliberate massacring of innocent men, women and children that it is ok if 'God' does it too? Please elaborate.
I think you know that the bible does not condone wanton murder. The mosiac laws reflect a deep respect for life that all were to adhere to and if they didnt, then according to God, they did not deserve to live themselves.
The difference here is that when God makes a decision regarding life and death matters, he always acts within his own respect for life principles which is why the Canaanites were deemed as not being worthy of living. They flouted the 'respect for life' principle by their disturbing practices. I cant say why the children died along with their parents, but im certainly not going to go down the path of condemning God.
I am most definitely anti abortion and its through my bible trained conscience that i am such. I am also anti war which is what i've learnt from the bible, I am also anti violent movies and games which is what i've learnt from the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-16-2009 10:55 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 1:22 AM Peg has replied
 Message 251 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-17-2009 6:50 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 214 of 384 (515277)
07-16-2009 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by themasterdebator
07-16-2009 12:53 PM


themasterdebater writes:
The behavior is not consistent with God punishing those offending him. The Caananites had been following these practices for hundreds of years. If God had been offended by them he would have properly punished all perpetrators over this long period of time. Yet none of the generations prior to the Israelites arrival suffered the wrath of God for their pagan practices. So if God is really trying to punish those offending him, he is missing a large number of offenders.
im glad you made this point, because it does seem like the issue may have been something other then their practices.
But Moses words show that the reasons behind their destruction was two fold.
Deut 9:1-5. says that it was "in fact, it is for the wickedness of these nations" and "in order to carry out the word that Jehovah swore to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"
"To your seed I am going to give this land." (Gen 12:1-7)
"To your seed I will give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates." (Gen 15:17-21)
its true that God could have given some other land to Israel but by giving them this land, he used them as his instruments to destroy the Canaanites. the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were also canaanite cities and they were destroyed a long time earlier due to their conduct.
There is also the indication that God purposed to set a limit upon the Canaanite badness, he even informed Abraham about the future of the nation at Gen 15:16.: "In the fourth generation they will return here, because the error of the Amorites (the strongest Canaanite tribe) has not yet come to completion."
So obviously God had put up with the canaanites for along time and now, with the time for Abrahams children to receive their inheritance, it was also the time for the canaanites to be destroyed completely.
Most interesting though is the fact that the Canaanites knew 40 years in advance that Isreal and its God was coming. (Josh. 2:9-21, 24; 9:24-27) Rahab was a canaanite prostitute who chose to join the isrealites and was spared along with her whole family (she even became an ancestor of Jesus) There was also the city of the Gibeonites who asked Isreal for mercy and were also spared. But the other cities refused to seek mercy and chose to fight instead.
So there was no injustice on Gods part in ordering the execution of all who opposed the isrealites.
The fact is that any canaanites who wanted to be spared could be. But the majority chose to fight. And they lost. Unfortunately, their own actions caused the death of their children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by themasterdebator, posted 07-16-2009 12:53 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 384 (515298)
07-17-2009 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Peg
07-16-2009 10:07 PM


Re: Double standards?
I think your "bible trained conscience" is the problem here. It allows for massive contradictions. You seem to be aware that the mass murder of children is wrong and if it had happened anywhere other than the Bible, you would say it is wrong, but because God did it any action is instantly validated no matter how horrific. Never mind that there are reasonable explanations for the actions(revenge and to scare other potential opponents). You start with the assumption that God is right before even analyzing the actions taken place.
At this point, I have to ask you and I want you to address this directly. What action could God take that would lead you to believe he is committing a wrong act? I am not say he will commit such an act, but what would it take for you to believe God's action is wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 10:07 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Peg, posted 07-17-2009 7:09 AM themasterdebator has replied
 Message 221 by Perdition, posted 07-17-2009 10:12 AM themasterdebator has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 216 of 384 (515304)
07-17-2009 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Hill Billy
07-16-2009 9:28 AM


There.
Now I corrected you.
Awww. Hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so thanks for that!
Later dude.
Hope so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Hill Billy, posted 07-16-2009 9:28 AM Hill Billy has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 217 of 384 (515305)
07-17-2009 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by themasterdebator
07-16-2009 12:53 PM


The point of this argument being that while the events may have happened,
It has been proven beyond all doubt that the Israelites certainly never put Jericho to the ban. Archaeological evidence from not just Jericho but from all over Palestine has shown that there was never a unified military campaign by the Israelites (even the Bible contradicts itself over Joshua's campaign). The strongest current theory of Israelite settlement in Palestine is that the Israelite emerged from within Canaanite society, which does away with the need for an Exodus and the conquest. The Exodus and conquest of Canaan as per the Bible narratives was discarded decades ago.
However, these facts do not affect this particular debate, where we can witness first hand the lack of moral fibre, and the desperation to cling to this erroneous image that our friends here have of the god Yahweh.
This is typical fundy theology though, start with a conclusion then look for evidence and if that evidence is either lacking or contradictory to their claims then they will ignore it or say they dont have all the answers but the Bible simply can't say that God is evil despite the obvious vulgar acts God is said to have commanded, and also carried out Himself, in the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by themasterdebator, posted 07-16-2009 12:53 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 218 of 384 (515310)
07-17-2009 6:30 AM


Moderator Comments
I've been worried that this thread might spin out of control, so I'd like to thank the participants for making the moderation job easy. Just a couple brief comments.
I want to complement Peg on maintaining her composure while enduring feedback which in some cases was somewhat extreme.
I also want to complement the other side for not going too overboard. There seems to be a sense among most that these are Peg's sincere religious beliefs. It should be possible to challenge those beliefs while remaining respectful.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Peg, posted 07-17-2009 9:05 AM Admin has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 219 of 384 (515313)
07-17-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by themasterdebator
07-17-2009 1:22 AM


Re: Double standards?
themasterdebator writes:
At this point, I have to ask you and I want you to address this directly. What action could God take that would lead you to believe he is committing a wrong act? I am not say he will commit such an act, but what would it take for you to believe God's action is wrong?
i dont believe he can do wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 1:22 AM themasterdebator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 11:38 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 220 of 384 (515319)
07-17-2009 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Admin
07-17-2009 6:30 AM


Re: Moderator Comments
cheers for the thumbs up percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Admin, posted 07-17-2009 6:30 AM Admin has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 221 of 384 (515327)
07-17-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by themasterdebator
07-17-2009 1:22 AM


Re: Double standards?
Everything God says is true. God says he respects life, therefore no matter what God does, it's out of respect for life, even when killing indiscriminately. Duh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 1:22 AM themasterdebator has not replied

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 5354 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 222 of 384 (515328)
07-17-2009 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by themasterdebator
07-16-2009 12:53 PM


ooops
themasterdebator.
It's seems to me that if one is to respond to a post one might actually quote the post one is responding to.
Masterdebator indeed.

The years tell what the days never knew.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by themasterdebator, posted 07-16-2009 12:53 PM themasterdebator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 11:18 AM Hill Billy has replied

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 5354 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 223 of 384 (515334)
07-17-2009 10:53 AM


In some disputes the points of view are so vastly divergent that it is unrealistic to expect agreement, even agreement to disagree.
It would seem to me that this is what we got here.
It seems that the points of view here could be expressed as.....
A) Life is exclusive to this life. There is no "afterlife"
B) There is an afterlife but it is independent of GOD
C) There is an afterlife and and the nature of that afterlife is completely dependant on GOD's will.
If one believes in option A then it is unlikely that one could achieve any understanding of the beliefs of those who believe option C.
Believers in option A would view this current life as all there is and therefore would place a very high value on this life.
It's no wonder that believers in option A would view many of GOD's actions as vile.
However, if one believes option C then life here and now hold much less value then the real life to come. This current life becomes only a necessary but temporary diversion.
As innocence is the original state of human being (and GOD'S will), it can be assumed that innocence will grant admission to heaven.
Once one is old enough to lose their innocence then admittance depends on repentance and confession. (honesty)
Based on the beliefs of option C, GOD bringing home the innocent is not a crime but a gift.
The reasoning that it is wrong for a human to take a life but not so for GOD is also simple.
GOD is aware of a humans future and would know if repentance is in that future.
Humans are not. Therefore a human, in taking the life of another human is also taking the possibility of future repentance.
Have a nice day. It could be the last one you have.

The years tell what the days never knew.

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Perdition, posted 07-17-2009 11:26 AM Hill Billy has replied
 Message 226 by Brian, posted 07-17-2009 11:34 AM Hill Billy has replied
 Message 229 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 11:40 AM Hill Billy has replied
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 07-17-2009 11:52 AM Hill Billy has replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 384 (515339)
07-17-2009 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 10:14 AM


Re: ooops
The reply function makes it clear who I am responding to and unless I am responding to a specific part of the post I like to simply use that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 10:14 AM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 3:44 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 225 of 384 (515340)
07-17-2009 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 10:53 AM


Based on the beliefs of option C, GOD bringing home the innocent is not a crime but a gift.
So, would you agree that if I go around and kill all the just born babies, I may be damning my own soul, but giving a great gift to all those babies who will never have to worry about their souls being tarnished and will forever live in the innocence and grace that God believes we all should have?
Doesn't this belief seem to encourage infanticide? Doesn't this strike you as vile, wrong, and despicable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 10:53 AM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Brian, posted 07-17-2009 11:37 AM Perdition has replied
 Message 244 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 4:33 PM Perdition has replied

  
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