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Author Topic:   What exactly is ID?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3376 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 1273 (511578)
06-10-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son
06-09-2009 2:38 PM


Son writes:
-what is the age of the earth?
ID doesn't disagree with the supposed old age of the Earth generally agreed by scientists.
what did the designer create? (species? genus? familiy?)
Everything.
-when did he create life?
Whenever scientists think life first arose on Earth.
-I would also like to know if possible, what are the observations that lead to your answers.
There are plenty of questions scientists can't answer... yet anyway. Therefore, the intelligent designer "theory" is the answer for all those unanswered questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Son, posted 06-09-2009 2:38 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Son, posted 06-10-2009 2:26 PM Taz has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 17 of 1273 (511587)
06-10-2009 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taz
06-10-2009 1:55 PM


Taz writes:
what did the designer create? (species? genus? familiy?)
Everything.
What I meant by that is: did he create species then they "micro evolved"? Or was it genus? If I'm not mistaken, they believe micro-evolution to be possible.
What I wanted was more like a rough "history of life" from an ID perspective, a bit like evolution does (afterall, they are competing theories,right?).
I intended to ask for more details about what ID says as the thread progressed but the only answer I got so far from an IDer was: ID is just an idea that doesn't really say anything apart from the fact that a designer exists.
Edited by Son, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 06-10-2009 1:55 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 06-10-2009 4:03 PM Son has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3376 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 18 of 1273 (511608)
06-10-2009 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Son
06-10-2009 2:26 PM


Son writes:
What I meant by that is: did he create species then they "micro evolved"?
From what I understand, they also believe in "macro evolution". They believe, however, that the mechanisms proposed by scientists for evolution are not enough for what we see today. I think "guided evolution" might fit more with what they mean.
What I wanted was more like a rough "history of life" from an ID perspective, a bit like evoltion does (afterall, they are competing theories,right?).
Again, the only difference, supposedly, between ID and and the theory of evolution is the theory of evolution doesn't mention an intelligent designer while ID requires that there has to be a designer guiding the natural world.
I intended to ask for more details about what ID says as the thread progressed but the only answer I got so far from an IDer was: ID is just an idea that doesn't really say anything apart from the fact that a designer exists.
That's because that's about the extent of what ID says. There hasn't been any research or experiment for ID. All they got are facts from the scientific world sprinkled with ID's magic dust.

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 Message 17 by Son, posted 06-10-2009 2:26 PM Son has not replied

LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 1273 (514974)
07-14-2009 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son
06-09-2009 2:38 PM


Son writes:
I would like to know what is really ID.
By that, I mean for ID:
-what is the age of the earth?
-what did the designer create? (species? genus? familiy?)
-when did he create life?
-I would also like to know if possible, what are the observations that lead to your answers.
Of course feel free to give more detail if you have them.
I ask because most IDers say ID is a theory so it would be nice to know what we are talking about before arguing about the evidence.
All talks about evidence or evolution (like ID says this because evo can't explain it) SHOULD BE TAKEN TO ANOTHER thread.
The age of the earth, as far as I am concerned is 6000 years or so. I understand however that there are theistic evolutionists. Theistic evolutionists take into account long ages and can include the ridiculus theory of biological evolution.
The Creator created all Kinds.
He created life in the beginning, male and female too.
The evidence that I can refer to is all around us.
Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.

There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.
blz paskal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Son, posted 06-09-2009 2:38 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Son, posted 07-14-2009 2:47 PM LucyTheApe has not replied
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Son
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 20 of 1273 (514978)
07-14-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by LucyTheApe
07-14-2009 2:15 PM


That sounds like Creationism. Are you sure you are talking about ID? Or do you think the two are in fact the same? And when I asked what The designer created, I meant, did he create all species as they are now or did he create genus then those evolved from there? (or something like that)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by LucyTheApe, posted 07-14-2009 2:15 PM LucyTheApe has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 21 of 1273 (514980)
07-14-2009 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son
07-14-2009 2:47 PM


ID is religion lite
That sounds like Creationism. Are you sure you are talking about ID?
Of course its ID!
When they're talking about creationism they say the same thing but add an "Amen!" at the end.
;-)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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 Message 20 by Son, posted 07-14-2009 2:47 PM Son has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4274 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 22 of 1273 (515005)
07-14-2009 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by LucyTheApe
07-14-2009 2:15 PM


The Creator created all Kinds
Here we go again, kinds. What is your definition of "Kind"?
The evidence that I can refer to is all around us.
So give us some.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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 Message 19 by LucyTheApe, posted 07-14-2009 2:15 PM LucyTheApe has not replied

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Son
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 23 of 1273 (515023)
07-14-2009 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by bluescat48
07-14-2009 5:53 PM


This thread is intended to be mainly descriptive, it's not really intended for debate. Discussion of evidence should be taken to another thread. I did that so that I could actually make it simple to have an answer about what is I.D. If we begin to discuss evidence without actually determining clearly what is I.D. first, I fear it will only muddle the issue.

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 Message 22 by bluescat48, posted 07-14-2009 5:53 PM bluescat48 has not replied

traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


(1)
Message 24 of 1273 (515343)
07-17-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Son
06-09-2009 2:38 PM


What is Intelligent Design?
If you wish to understand Intelligent Design, I would suggest starting with getting rid of any sterotypes you have of what a creationist is because if we were creationists, then we should call ourselves that. I think this sentence will elict laughs from my Darwinist friends on this forum.
You see creationists take issues and work from science and they attempt to shoehorn those issues into a biblical framework. Proponents of ID should not attempt to do this. (At least not all of them do this.) They should look at the natural world from various scientific fields and form hypotheses from them.
From wikipedia:
Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1][2]
I completely agree with the first part of this definition but what comes after the comma, I do not completely agree with. I think they might be confusing 'natural selection' with 'common descent'. From my point of view, natural selection can be described as a part of chaos. Natural selection is an undirected process but order can be hidden within chaos. Chaos theory is an emerging branch of science. I believe in natural selection and I also believe in common descent as formed by a process I call assemblism.
So where do proponents of ID draw their beliefs from? Very briefly:
1. Molecular machinery inside of the cell. An example would be irreducibly complex systems.
2. Patterns of appearance of organisms in the fossil record.
3. The fine-tuned physics of the universe. Robin Collins is an expert in this.
4. The fine-tuning of our terrestrial environment and our solar system along with the specific "galactic habitable zone" in our galaxy which is also the right type of galaxy that supports life. If any of you doubt me on this, read the book "Rare Earth" which is divorced from any sort of theological framework. The science we have now is different from the era of Carl Sagan.
5. The complex specified information within DNA providing specific functions that helps build organisms. Abiogenesis models typically do not attempt to explain the origin of this information. They also don't account for other crucial details.
I will be investigating a new area next week I could list as a possible #6. I have a strong lead came from a one on one interview I had personally with a biologist who was a secular Darwinist. I never heard of it being advanced by any proponent of ID so I find the propects exciting.
What is important for you to understand is that most of these things were relatively or virtually unknown 20 years ago!!! The trend for ID is up and the gaps in secular evolution are growing. I think we will win.
Don't take what we all say at face value.
"Beware of one one hand clapping."
What is ID to me?
Not only is it a learning process, it is a way of perception. It is a way of seeing through the irrational debate of secular evolutionists with critical analysis. I might make a good philosopher of science.
By the way, if you are impressed with the eruditeness of my post, don't let me fool you. I am an amateur and I have no official crucial scientific training. However, I have a brain and I have a background in other things formed by self-education through some experiences I have had in life. I think this gives me a unique perspective.

Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Son, posted 06-09-2009 2:38 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Perdition, posted 07-17-2009 1:44 PM traderdrew has not replied
 Message 26 by Son, posted 07-17-2009 1:56 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 28 by CosmicChimp, posted 07-17-2009 2:16 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 29 by Coyote, posted 07-17-2009 7:47 PM traderdrew has replied
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 07-17-2009 8:46 PM traderdrew has not replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 25 of 1273 (515368)
07-17-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by traderdrew
07-17-2009 11:36 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
I think this is one of the best posts I've ever read from you. It lays out a pretty good possible avenue for ID, but it still contains a few errors and misconceptions.
Natural selection is an undirected process but order can be hidden within chaos.
Natural selection is considered undirected, in that there isn't a pre-determined goal in mind. However, if you mean undirected to be random or "chaotic" then that's wrong. Natural selection, as the name itslef implies, is selection, meaning the survival of an organism isn't random, it's directly based on it's ability to survive in the environment and compete with the other organisms in that environment. It's a very non-random process with predictive capabilities.
1. Molecular machinery inside of the cell. An example would be irreducibly complex systems.
In the other thread, it's been shown that irreducibly complex systems can evolve, and in fact, are predicted by current evolutionary theory, thus IC systems are not evidence for or against an intelligent designer.
2. Patterns of appearance of organisms in the fossil record.
I'm not sure what you mean here. The patterns we see are part of evolutionary theory and have not only been taken into account, but are some of the reasons current evolutionary theory was developed.
3. The fine-tuned physics of the universe. Robin Collins is an expert in this.
This is probably the best avenue for ID proponents to focus on. The anthropic principle is a hot topic in physics and other science circles, but ID needs to make sure it's not jumping to conclusions and in fact does some actual scientific work for their views to be taken seriously.
4. The fine-tuning of our terrestrial environment and our solar system along with the specific "galactic habitable zone" in our galaxy which is also the right type of galaxy that supports life.
Taking your point in number three as a given, then the sheer number of galaxies and planets within them makes this one inevitable. It's not really a good argument for a designer, as the lack of habitable planets, the ones that have absolutley no chance to support life could then be an argument against a designer, and there are a lot more of those types of bodies in the universe than life supporting ones (currently at precisely one known example).
5. The complex specified information within DNA providing specific functions that helps build organisms. Abiogenesis models typically do not attempt to explain the origin of this information. They also don't account for other crucial details.
People who use information as a proff of a designer usually have no idea what information theory says, or what information itself is. There is absolutely nothing that prevents information from arising naturally and increasing in complexity through a small series of steps.
The trend for ID is up and the gaps in secular evolution are growing. I think we will win.
Well, when you start at nothing (ID isn't an old idea) you have no where to go but up. And by the way, the gaos in evolution are getting smaller and farther apart, you're just not accepting the newer discoveries and explanations.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Son
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 26 of 1273 (515370)
07-17-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by traderdrew
07-17-2009 11:36 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
While it is intersting, I would like the simple questions I asked in the OP to be answered. In short, I would like to have some kind of "rough history of life" from an ID perspective.(In fact you just answered the question : "What led you to believe ID to be true?")
I will ask for more details on this after those 1st questions are answered. As for what led you to ID, I think you answered the question fully enough for the purpose of this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by traderdrew, posted 07-17-2009 11:36 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 10:50 AM Son has replied
 Message 38 by traderdrew, posted 07-18-2009 12:47 PM Son has replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 27 of 1273 (515373)
07-17-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Perdition
07-17-2009 1:44 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
I know you disagree stronly with Tradervew but this thread is intended to be mainly descriptive, debates should be taken to more appropriate threads (Like I said in the OP). I made this thread this way in order to have a straightforward answer about what is ID in as few posts as possible. Keep in mind that the post you answered to only responded to one of the questions I asked and I considered this question secondary. It shouldn't start long debates here or this thread will go way off its intended purpose.

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CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 28 of 1273 (515374)
07-17-2009 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by traderdrew
07-17-2009 11:36 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
... From my point of view, natural selection can be described as a part of chaos. Natural selection is an undirected process but order can be hidden within chaos. Chaos theory is an emerging branch of science. ...
You're going to have to expand on this a bit more. NS is directed. When an organism is out there struggling to survive and reproduce, do you really think it is undirected in its efforts? I think not. "Selection," the act of selection is a process of order not chaos as is "selection," the individuals or genes that have been able to get into the next generation.
As far as I can tell you are clouding up the issues up with your discussion about chaos theory. There's no applicability.
{ABE}Ah I see I am off topic again, let us take this discussion of NS to another thread.
Edited by CosmicChimp, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 29 of 1273 (515423)
07-17-2009 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by traderdrew
07-17-2009 11:36 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."
As stated, this is "an assertion" not a conclusion based on the scientific evidence. That assertion comes from religious belief, not scientific evidence.
What is important for you to understand is that most of these things were relatively or virtually unknown 20 years ago!!! The trend for ID is up and the gaps in secular evolution are growing. I think we will win.
Of course! Twenty years ago is when the U.S. Supreme Court decided Edwards v. Aguillard, which removed creation "science" from the schools. Creation scientists had to come up with another dodge, and ID was it.
Don't take what we all say at face value.
Don't worry, we won't.
What is ID to me?
Not only is it a learning process, it is a way of perception. It is a way of seeing through the irrational debate of secular evolutionists with critical analysis. I might make a good philosopher of science.
Fine, but what it isn't is a science, and it is dishonest to try to claim that it is a science or that it is based on scientific evidence.
I am an amateur and I have no official crucial scientific training.
I believe you!
However, you should remember that a number of the folks here are scientists. And a deep understanding of a field of science isn't something that comes with casual study. Many of us have spent 30 or 40 years in intense study of a particular field. And we might just resent an amateur who comes along and tells us we don't know squat.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by traderdrew, posted 07-17-2009 11:36 AM traderdrew has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 1273 (515430)
07-17-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by traderdrew
07-17-2009 11:36 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Hi Traderdrew, nice post.
In keeping with the request of Son, I am copying your post to another thread, that I think is appropriate for this discussion:
See Message 1 Is ID properly pursued?
Your post is copied to Message 53.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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