Pick and Choose Fundamentalism

Ok Um, no. GOD would have foreknowledge that Ralph was gonna die. Then. What might have happened is not relevant, as it didn't happen. Thats what would happen. Uh huh. Um, no, that makes Ralph and the person who killed him stupid.

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The years tell what the days never knew.

I understand the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. It's like an undercover operation. The police are aware of what you are going to do through evidence and surveillance, but they aren't forcing you to do it. I get that part and I think to a degree he is right.The problem is that God allowing these things to happen without forcing your hand doesn't somehow absolve him of his sadism. Imagine sticking men and women in the same room, giving them their sex drives, but then saying don't eat the forbidden fruit. He says, "Ah, but I gave you freewill! You could have opted not to." Sure, that's true. But imagine blaming the monkey for eating the banana when you dangled it in his face! He's just following the desires imparted by God. God therefore is responsible for every action that happens because he wrote the template for it all.

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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

But the knwoing that the police do is different. They assume you will do the thing that they're stinging you for, but because they're not omniscient, they need you to actually do it before than can arrest you for a crime. Before you do it, there isn't a crime committed, so they can't charge you with "Well, he looked like maybe he was gonna do the thing we thought he might do when we were there to catch him do it."On the other hand, God KNOWS what you are going to do. In my example, can I turn right?

Ya. I guess so. No, unless of course you believe you are GOD. What? Humans killing babies? You betcha!

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The years tell what the days never knew.

Why? If killing an innocent baby guarantees the baby will be accepted into Heaven, then how is that bad for the baby? Unless, of course, you're saying that a baby killed by me won't go to Heaven, which seems to contradict what you said before.

Brian,
Just curious Who is this "Jim" you refer to?

All I will say is that he hangs out at this forum. We have some interesting debates as well.

While it may not be bad for the baby (assuming you caused no pain) it likely would be bad for those who loved the baby as well as those civil servants that had to deal with the remains.
The argument is crap anyway. If it's bad for you it's bad.

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The years tell what the days never knew.

Ok, we'll steal a chapter from peg's book and let's not only kill the baby but also kill those who loved the baby as well as the civil servants that would haev to deal with the remains.

What? Is this a serious question?
Seems to me more along the lines of "If we have no bananas then how can we go fishing?"
You have free will.
GOD observes you exercising that freewill.
Before you exercise it.
Foreknowladge and predestination are separate concepts.
I've had enough concept stew thanks.

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The years tell what the days never knew.

So you don't think the bloody massacring of babies and children is inhumane and horrible no matter who does it? Wow, how is the bloody killing by the Hebrew god of anyone any different than any of the massacres that have occured throughout history i.e the Holocaust, the Killing Fields, etc? Why do you not question any of the stories of a god who not only condones but commands the deliberate inhumane massacring of babies and children, the rape and pillage of entire cities of people, ethnicide, slavery, torture, child abuse, making sex slaves out of young girls and women, the damnation of the entire human race to undescribable pain and torure for eternity and other horrendous acts in the name of Biblical morality.On top of that, you want us to believe your made-up god is good, loving and kind and base our framework of morality off of this.
You are out of your fucking mind. If you want to believe this fairy tale fine, but do not ask us to jump off the cliff with you or force my children to. I am sorry it is useless trying to talk sense into someone who cannot even see the glaring contradictions you yourself acknowledge here: If the god of the Hebrew in the Bible is merciful, I would hate to see an unmerciful person? How much unmerciful could someone be than to needlessly slaughter innocent children and infants? Sorry I am not letting you off the hook on this one. If you want others to understand your worldview (I assume this is why you are on this discussion board in the first place) you need to give us a rational reason why.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So it is ok if a divine omniscient, omnipotent entity kills innocent children and babies but not humans?This is like telling your children it is wrong to be a bully and beat up little kids smaller than them than you go and murder a kid in your front yard for picking flowers out of yedour flower b. How are your kids going to react?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Asked and answered. I guess if you you don't examine to closely.
Now, were you to give it some thought...... Who knows?.
Why don't you give it a try?

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The years tell what the days never knew.

Ok, why?
Do you have some reason for disagreeing or are you just feeling disagreeable? So, using your logic, (seems a bit of a stretch to call it that but, for the sake of argument lets go with it.) It's ok for me to steal if I feed the poor with the proceeds? It's ok to cheat if I can benefit some one else?
Ok. I'm not surprised. Perhaps you might try reading it. What? Let me see.. You say if GOD loves me he should withdraw my freedom to choose to love him.
That makes no sense to me, thankfully.

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The years tell what the days never knew.

Thats a very selfish argument. It would be good for the baby. And if I am willing to consider others happiness over myself then overall it would be good. You are now trying to compare our temporary earthly happiness with the happiness of being in heaven with God. From what I understand, the happiness of Heaven is on a completely different level then what we can experience on earth, plus its an eternal happiness, unlike the temporary sadness here. Although I suppose you could not follow standard christian beliefs. Do you believe peoples happiness on earth is of greater or comparable value to that of being with God in heaven? Otherwise the experience of those saddened by the loss of heaven would not matter, because it is a temporary loss compared to the eternal happiness the child you have sent to God would experience. Note we are not just talking about an event that would be "good" for the baby, we are talking about heaven, which is the greatest happiness one can experience in standard Christian beliefs.