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Author Topic:   Pick and Choose Fundamentalism
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 384 (515431)
07-17-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 8:15 PM


So, using your logic, (seems a bit of a stretch to call it that but, for the sake of argument lets go with it.) It's ok for me to steal if I feed the poor with the proceeds? It's ok to cheat if I can benefit some one else?
Ok.
Where is the stretch? That you don't want to believe your belief system would condone this sort of behavior? Its a very simply argument. Babies are innocent and guaranteed a spot in heaven. Adults are not. If they die as a baby they are guaranteed eternal happiness. If they die as adult they are not. Killing them as babies eliminates the risk of hell and guarantees eternal happiness. Where is the stretch?
Your analogy is where the stretch is. How is stealing applicable? My own soul is going to be the ones being damned and I address in my other post why the suffering of those losing the baby is insignificant in comparison to the eternal happiness of Christ. The only thing I am really "taking away" is the babies chance to go to hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 8:15 PM Hill Billy has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 257 of 384 (515463)
07-18-2009 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by themasterdebator
07-17-2009 11:38 AM


Re: Double standards?
themasterdebator writes:
I did not say he can do wrong, I said what would he have to do for you to believe he is wrong?
although i know he would never do this, for me, he would have to turn his back on mankind and revoke his promise of everlasting life and repairing all the damage done by mankind over the past 6,000 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 11:38 AM themasterdebator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by lyx2no, posted 07-18-2009 9:21 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 258 of 384 (515465)
07-18-2009 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by DevilsAdvocate
07-17-2009 6:50 PM


Re: Double standards?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
the rape and pillage of entire cities of people, ethnicide, slavery, torture, child abuse, making sex slaves out of young girls and women, the damnation of the entire human race to undescribable pain and torure for eternity and other horrendous acts in the name of Biblical morality.
i dont know where you get all this stuff from, but its obviously not the bible
can you provide any references to the torture, rape & sex slaves???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-17-2009 6:50 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-18-2009 10:57 AM Peg has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4715 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 259 of 384 (515468)
07-18-2009 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Peg
07-18-2009 9:06 AM


Re: Double standards?
he would have to turn his back on mankind
And how, prey tell, would you know if He had done that? Can I offer up up a few indicators? WWI, WWII, Bubonic plague, France
If Jesus Jr. came to Earth tomorrow and said, "You're all toast: Dad's given up on you." how long do you think it would be before you nailed him to a tree? Would you take God's word for it, or would you need evidence? What would that evidence be?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 9:06 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 10:02 AM lyx2no has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 260 of 384 (515475)
07-18-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by lyx2no
07-18-2009 9:21 AM


Re: Double standards?
lyx2no writes:
And how, prey tell, would you know if He had done that? Can I offer up up a few indicators? WWI, WWII, Bubonic plague, France
bible prophecies would stop being fulfilled...that hasnt happened which gives evidence of Gods purpose still in progress.
lyx2no writes:
If Jesus Jr. came to Earth tomorrow and said, "You're all toast: Dad's given up on you." how long do you think it would be before you nailed him to a tree? Would you take God's word for it, or would you need evidence? What would that evidence be?
my guess would be that jesus jr would show miracles, the same way he did in the past, to prove he had come from God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by lyx2no, posted 07-18-2009 9:21 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 07-18-2009 10:08 AM Peg has replied
 Message 265 by themasterdebator, posted 07-18-2009 8:16 PM Peg has replied
 Message 267 by lyx2no, posted 07-18-2009 10:17 PM Peg has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 261 of 384 (515477)
07-18-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Peg
07-18-2009 10:02 AM


Re: Double standards?
bible prophecies would stop being fulfilled...
They haven't even started yet.
There's never been a single Bible prophecy fulfilled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 10:02 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Peg, posted 07-19-2009 5:58 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 262 of 384 (515489)
07-18-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Hill Billy
07-17-2009 4:15 PM


Re: More evil than I thought
So, you THINK that foreknowledge and predestination are one in the same?
Really?
So in your world.......
If I have foreknowledge that inserting a super heated steel rod in your rectum will cause intense pain,
and,
You choose to insert said red hot poker in your butt,
I am response able for your pain because I knew it was gonna happen?
Hmmm.
That’s a pretty bad analogy HB, for many reasons, none more obvious than you aligning yourself up with God.
With predestination I would have no choice, I would be doing the butt stuff whether I wanted to or not, it was written that I would, so brace myself I suppose.
But, as I said, the premises are too different to that of a loving God who knows all, and my inserting the steel rod has no bearing on my eternal life.
The Bible tells us what we need to do to attain eternal life, believe in Jesus’ victory over death and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour, if not then you take the consequences. Now God knows what your choice will be long before the world was even created, so if you are one of the people who God knows will never accept Jesus as your saviour then there’s nothing you can do about it.
If you are destined for heaven bud, then you go there regardless of your own personal plans.
It is becoming clear why you feel you don't need forgiveness.
What do I forgiveness for and from whom? This is what I keep asking, why do YOU think I have done something that requires me to ask for forgiveness?
If you will not accept responsibility for your own choices
Again, what makes you believe this?
Really? How so?
Oh there’s so many reasons, a few being that God is responsible for the Fall because he knew the outcome of the test. God creates people in the knowledge that they won’t be saved. Jesus sarcifice was pointless, and Jesus did not die for everyone. There’s a lot more but I can’t really be bothered going over them all yet again.
Edited by Brian, : formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Hill Billy, posted 07-17-2009 4:15 PM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Hill Billy, posted 07-19-2009 5:40 PM Brian has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 263 of 384 (515492)
07-18-2009 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Peg
07-18-2009 9:14 AM


Re: Double standards?
Peg writes:
i dont know where you get all this stuff from, but its obviously not the bible
can you provide any references to the torture, rape & sex slaves???
You know it is in there Peg. It has been repeated on this board a thousand times over. You just plausibly deny its occurance because you selectively choose not read the passages because it might cause some consternation and cause you to waiver in your faith.
However for the sake of other lurkers I will give a few disconcerting excerpts (maybe illustrations will help you ):
Torture/Child Abuse:
Exodus 21:20-21 writes:
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Deuteronomy 25:2 writes:
And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten.
Proverbs 20:30 writes:
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
Proverbs 26:3 writes:
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
Proverbs 23:13-14 writes:
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
2 Samuel 12:31 writes:
And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon.
1 Chronicles 20:3 writes:
And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon
Wow, not much different than the furnaces of Auschwitz and other Nazi extermination camps. Oh, what a loving god.
Hosea 13:16 writes:
Samaria shall bear her guilt; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Rape/Sex Slaves:
Exodus 21:7 writes:
If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master. who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
Judges 21:10-14 writes:
So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. This is what you are to do, they said. Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin. They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
Numbers 31:14-17 writes:
Moses was angry with the officers of the armythe commanders of thousands and commanders of hundredswho returned from the battle.
Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 writes:
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to deaththe girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 writes:
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Ethnicide:
Massacre of the Aradites (Numbers 21:1-3) / Massacre of the Amorites
(Deuteronomy 2:26-34) / Massacre of the Bashanites (Numbers 21:33-35)
Deuteronomy 7:16

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 9:14 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Peg, posted 07-19-2009 7:01 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 384 (515498)
07-18-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Perdition
07-17-2009 4:32 PM


Re: More evil than I thought
In my example, can I turn right?
I've pondered predestination versus freewill and can only conclude that we have no real way of knowing either way. Deja' vu just makes it that much more difficult.
I suppose though that it is entirely possible that there could be infinite possibilities concerning the future, and that one could be headed down a certain path which will lead to door X, but at any given time one could opt to go down door B, but not that we are even aware of such possibilities.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Perdition, posted 07-17-2009 4:32 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
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themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 384 (515539)
07-18-2009 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Peg
07-18-2009 10:02 AM


Re: Double standards?
bible prophecies would stop being fulfilled...that hasnt happened which gives evidence of Gods purpose still in progress.
Which Biblical proficiencies are you talking about? And how have they been fulfilled? I mean there is the one in John about all these things coming to pass in your lifetime which did not happen. Other than that we have allot of metaphorical vague statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 10:02 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Peg, posted 07-19-2009 7:11 AM themasterdebator has not replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 384 (515543)
07-18-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2009 11:41 AM


Re: More evil than I thought
On predestination, I would say the bigger question would be is God predestined to do what he predicted. Power comes down to the ability to influence and make choices which change things. If he cannot do anything other than what is already fated to do, he would not be in control any more than we are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2009 11:41 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4715 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 267 of 384 (515553)
07-18-2009 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Peg
07-18-2009 10:02 AM


Re: Double standards?
bible prophecies would stop being fulfilled...that hasnt happened which gives evidence of Gods purpose still in progress.
How many prophecies are there? I mean, It's been thirty-three hundred years and half that many pages. God will run out of prophecies to fulfill if He's not frugal. How many years are you willing to let pass without His fulfilling a prophecy before you say He's stopped?
my guess would be that jesus jr would show miracles, the same way he did in the past, to prove he had come from God.
What kind of miracle? What if he went on the Oprah Winfrey Show and held His breath of life for 17 minutes 4.4 seconds; Would that do?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Peg, posted 07-18-2009 10:02 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 268 of 384 (515563)
07-19-2009 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Brian
07-18-2009 10:08 AM


Re: Double standards?
Brian writes:
They haven't even started yet.
There's never been a single Bible prophecy fulfilled.
according to you perhaps.
lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 07-18-2009 10:08 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Brian, posted 07-19-2009 9:00 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 275 by themasterdebator, posted 07-19-2009 1:10 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 276 by bluescat48, posted 07-19-2009 4:56 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 269 of 384 (515564)
07-19-2009 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by DevilsAdvocate
07-18-2009 10:57 AM


Re: Double standards?
hi Devilsadvocate,
Im looking at those verses and i dont see what you are seeing.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Exodus: If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
this verse is telling slave owners that if they beat their slaves and cause death, they were to be punished for it. We have similar laws ourselves...if you bludgeon someone to death its murder and you'll be charged but if you get into a fight with someone, its only an assault charge.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Rape/Sex Slaves:
Exodus 21:7 writes:
If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master. who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
what has this got to do with rape???
It seems to me that female slaves were protected under this law because they COULD NOT be used for sex and nothing more. If the man found the girl pleasing, she was to become his wife with ALL marital rights that went along with that.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Judges 21:10-14 writes:
So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. This is what you are to do, they said. Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin. They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared.
this account says nothing about these women being brought into the camp to be raped. Read the rest of the account and you'll see that these women were made the wives of the soldiers.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Numbers 31:14-17 writes:
Moses was angry with the officers of the armythe commanders of thousands and commanders of hundredswho returned from the battle.
Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
this account does not say anything about rape either. Look at verse 18"And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male"
These women were spared for the purpose of marriage, not to be raped.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 writes:
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to deaththe girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 writes:
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
these are laws pertaining to a man who commits an act of rape. Its not telling the Isrealite men to rape women! Its about punishment for those who do. Obviously it was against the law, not for it.
and Wars happened, and the isrealite soldiers did kill people, but in those days, the Isrealites were the target of many attacks by the surrounding nations. Would it be right for God to say that they could not defend themselves and their inheritance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-18-2009 10:57 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-19-2009 9:25 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 273 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-19-2009 10:07 AM Peg has replied
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 270 of 384 (515565)
07-19-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by themasterdebator
07-18-2009 8:16 PM


Re: Double standards?
themasterdebator writes:
Which Biblical proficiencies are you talking about? And how have they been fulfilled? I mean there is the one in John about all these things coming to pass in your lifetime which did not happen. Other than that we have allot of metaphorical vague statements.
there are many but this isnt the thread for them as it will go way off topic.
but there have been prophecy threads in the recent past...cant remember where... or perhaps you can start a new thread on that topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by themasterdebator, posted 07-18-2009 8:16 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
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