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Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Bluejay writes:
1000 years is "endless"? You mentioned that it obviously wasn't "eternal" and I ignored it, because it didn't address anything I had claimed at all. I never claimed that Mormons were tormented endlessly, I said they were tormented. Once you seemingly conflated the prison with the Telestial Kingdom I pointed out that I didn't think you were correct in doing so, since it would imply that the torment was eternal. This is because I *clearly* understood that it was NOT!
You didn’t know that eternal and endless had a non-conventional meaning in the scriptures when you posted your argument, and, consequently, your argument was wrong. Bluejay writes:
Right, ok. The words are irrelevant, it is whatever you say it says. Would this be because you are... special?
Religious texts can say, wrath of God, when neither God nor anybody’s temper is involved, and still be teaching a correct principle. Bluejay writes:
What about:
Mormons believe that the torment and suffering we will feel is the direct result of our own actions, not something that God does to us.LDS Website writes:
LDS.org
"Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory."quote: What is the meaning of the Book of Mormon scriptures on eternal hell for the wicked? writes:
LDS.org
"Among those at death who are assigned to hell are the heirs of the telestial kingdom and the sons of perdition. These spirits will remain in hell, or spirit prison, suffering the wrath of Almighty God until the millennial reign is over. (See D&C 76:106.)"- H. Donl Peterson, professor of Ancient Scripture, Brigham Young University. Encyclopedia of Mormonism/edited by Daniel H. Ludlow. writes:
Encyclopedia of Mormonism The scriptures state that God sends cursings, judgments, and destruction upon the unbelieving and the rebellious, including all who reject the Savior or his prophets and are not willing to confess his hand in all things (D&C 1:6-13;59:21;63:6;88:85;104:8;124:48, 52; Moses 7:1) I think it is very clear that the Mormon concept of God punishes people for 1000 years, based on their actions. It isn't "nature" doing it, it is God. Feel free to cite your sources as well.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Master Debator.
themasterdebator writes: If you leave texts open to interpretation, people will interpret it the way they want, not necessarily the correct way. And there is no reason to favor one interpretation over another(other than personal preference). This is why we meet together to discuss the doctrines, rather than let everybody go their own way and believe their own thing. The LDS Church is a worldwide organization, like the Catholic Church (but obviously smaller). -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Hill Billy Member (Idle past 5382 days) Posts: 163 From: The hills Joined: |
themasterdebator writes: First, average people do not have the ability to properly decipher the religious texts. Really? What do you base this statement on, personal experience? Are you drawing you conclusion based on your own inability to properly decipher the religious texts. ?
To say the Bible was written for the average person is completely false. Why? Cause you say so?
it was written for the elite priests and leaders
This is the false statement.The fact that individual humans have attempted ( somewhat successfully) to deny access of the scriptures to the general population has no relationship to the intent of the writers. Essentially, it would not be a very useful book if ever time someone encounters something they have an issue with, they can shift the entire meaning and interpretation of the passages. Try taking a breath and thinking. Carefully.This wiggling and shifting is a result of human free will. My Grandfather used to say " It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools." To blame the writings for the human attempts to make them fit their own desires is very much like blaming the hammer cause you can't hit the nail.
people will interpret it the way they want. As you have proven.The intent, I believe, is to allow humans to follow GOD because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to. You have this choice as well. You don't need to put so much effort into making excuses, just make your choice and live ( and die) with it. The years tell what the days never knew.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4217 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
The intent, I believe, is to allow humans to follow GOD because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to. You have this choice as well. You don't need to put so much effort into making excuses, just make your choice and live ( and die) with it. This would be fine if people allowed other people to do this, rather than condemn others for not interpreting the scriptures in their manner. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
Phage0070 writes:
Perhaps it is poetic language, just as it is when mentioning what occurs when "prompted by the spirit". I would imagine the suffering of eternal fire would be more a statement of their extreme sorrow at where their actions have led them.
No, but when it says that someone is to "suffer the vengeance of eternal fire" I figure that, if not fire, it is at least similarly unpleasant.
Phage0070 writes:
ROFL
Are you attempting to argue that suffering from eternal fire *actually* means something like intensely experiencing zeal or what?
You know, it's pretty sad when an individual has to break things down "grade school style" in order for the opposing viewer to understand what is being said. I highly doubt you are really that dim though, and this is merely your feeble attempt at providing yet another straw-man argument.
Phage0070 writes:
ROFL!!!
When I quote them as a group and they appear to share consistent terminology, and they refer to people who end up in the same location, after the same period of time, and under the same conditions... sure.
So, your excuse is that you mistakenly lumped 105 and 106 with the rest of the verse as being the same place. Then, when I respond with merely stating that 81, and 84 ARE referring to the same place, you somehow think (once again mistakenly) that I am referring to 105 and 106 as well... because YOU mistakenly lumped them together? Wow... that's a solid cop out, if ever I've seen one.
Phage0070 writes:
ROFL! Projecting much? You ever hear of this buddhist proverb? When you point a finger at another, 5 more point back at you.
You have a lot of insults and claims that I am wrong, but you don't seem to be able to back them up with anything other than your unsupported opinion and derisive hoots...... You are hectoring, you are goading, and more importantly, you are not providing an argument. You have had to resort to this method of "debate" with bluejay from the very beginning, due to your OBVIOUS misinformation on LDS Doctrine. I have merely shown you what your "debate style" seems like on the receiving end. Unsurprisingly you don't like it, and have decided to hypocritically utilize "forum guidelines" in a feeble attempt to make me submit to your will. So to sum this up. You messed up, refused to admit it, and are now trying to point the blame elsewhere... Given your history on such actions, I see no point in further discussion with you, as it will only continue in a downward trend.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Michamus.
Michamus writes: You ever hear of this buddhist proverb? When you point a finger at another, 5 more point back at you. This one only works on that guy from the Princess Bride: the rest of us only have 4 pointing back at us. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Michamus writes:
I would not dispute that your imagination is vivid.
Perhaps it is poetic language, just as it is when mentioning what occurs when "prompted by the spirit". I would imagine the suffering of eternal fire would be more a statement of their extreme sorrow at where their actions have led them. Michamus writes:
Wouldn't accusing someone of presenting a straw man argument before they have presented one be, in and of itself, a straw man argument?
I highly doubt you are really that dim though, and this is merely your feeble attempt at providing yet another straw-man argument. Michamus writes:
Except of course that I am quoting LDS doctrine from official sources to back up my arguments.
You have had to resort to this method of "debate" with bluejay from the very beginning, due to your OBVIOUS misinformation on LDS Doctrine. Michamus writes:
So to sum this up. You messed up, refused to admit it, and are now trying to point the blame elsewhere... Given your history on such actions, I see no point in further discussion with you, as it will only continue in a downward trend.Phage0070 writes:
Check. Maybe I should write a book of prophecy. Honestly, I don't know what else you can try other than to accuse me of unforgivable rudeness and being generally impossible to deal with. Then you can refuse to respond and make it out to be my fault. Edited by Phage0070, : No reason given.
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Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
Bluejay writes:
ROFL! That's a good one. Princess Bride is a great film. I wasn't entirely sure if it was popular in our ward alone until now
This one only works on that guy from the Princess Bride: the rest of us only have 4 pointing back at us.
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Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
dupe post
Edited by Michamus, : dupe post
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Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
That "prophetic statement" you made was toward Bluejay and can be found here: Message 62.
Not really a prophecy if you prophesied about the wrong person, now is it? This conversation has ended. Move along.
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themasterdebator Inactive Member |
Hillbilly, why did you cut out every part of my post that explained the answers to your questions? I put my claims first, the warrants immediately after. If you would include my entire post instead of editing out the parts that explain things, you would understand where I am coming from. The way you quoted my posts is highly deceptive and inaccurate.
Really? What do you base this statement on, personal experience? Are you drawing you conclusion based on your own inability to properly decipher the religious texts. ? I will admit I should have sourced this bit, I apologize. I had assumed there was a general agreement on this point. "Only 16 percent of Christians polled said they read the Bible daily." and we are just talking about reading a copy of the Bible, not even comparative translations and looking at the original language. http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/literacy.htm
This is the false statement. The fact that individual humans have attempted ( somewhat successfully) to deny access of the scriptures to the general population has no relationship to the intent of the writers. You entirely dropped my main argument, which is that when the Bible was written and for the majority of its lifetime, the average person was not literate. Its not a question of denying scripture, its a question of whether the people in question could actually read. They certainly could not when the scripture was written and the authors would have known that. It is extremely egocentric to think the Bible was written specifically for your generation or for the last hundred years of the industrialized world. The only ones able to read for most of the Bibles history was the leaders and priests. And obviously literacy is a prerequisite for reading the Bible. But as I said earlier, I already pointed this out in my original post, you just chose to ignore it. And this does not even account for the fact that among those who could read, the number who could read well enough to understand literary devices(Metaphors, Similies, Diction) and had access to original source text would be extremely small.
Try taking a breath and thinking. Carefully. This wiggling and shifting is a result of human free will. My Grandfather used to say " It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools." To blame the writings for the human attempts to make them fit their own desires is very much like blaming the hammer cause you can't hit the nail. I am not blaming the writings for human attempts to make them fit their desires, I am blaming people who try to take a highly metaphorical stance on the Bible. If the Bible is written to mean things other than what it says, then it provides allot of opening for people to shift the meaning to what they want. A literal interpretation is the only way to avoid people bringing their own viewpoints into the matter. If the word "eternal" means something different in the Bible then in almost every other instance of its use,then it causes issues with interpretation. Its no longer a good guiding our behavior if by necessity we have to bring our own opinions on the matters in question. Its no longer guiding us then. We would just be guiding it to say what we already believe.
The intent, I believe, is to allow humans to follow GOD because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to. You have this choice as well. You don't need to put so much effort into making excuses, just make your choice and live ( and die) with it. Fully understanding a situation in no way limits their free will. People knowingly commit wrong actions all the time. All knowledge does it better inform you of the consequences. And from my understand, informing people in the right way to live is the purpose of the Bible. If people are allowing different interpretations of words as simply as "eternal", then they aren't gaining knowledge from the Bible, they are simply affirming the beliefs they already have. Edited by themasterdebator, : No reason given. Edited by themasterdebator, : No reason given.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Michamus writes:
That never stopped any of the prophets I have heard of.
Not really a prophecy if you prophesied about the wrong person, now is it?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes: This one only works on that guy from the Princess Bride: the rest of us only have 4 pointing back at us.
When I point my finger at my congregation I remind them I have 3 pointing back at me. Did I miss something somewhere? I just looked and counted. I have 1 finger pointing at the monitor three pointing at me and my thumb pointing at the floor. BTW I was just as specific about sin as I could be.Greek ἁμαρτάνω means: 1) to be without a share in 2) to miss the mark 3) to err, be mistaken Hebrew חטאת means:1) sin, sinful 2) sin, sin offering Those definitions are not much help either. Sorry, God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Phage.
I’ve been a bit busy this weekend: I apologize for the wait. Okay, from the beginning, the Mormon doctrine is that sin prevents the attainment of full glory. It makes us filthy, in the words of the scriptures (1 Nephi 15:33-34; sorry, I don’t know how to link directly to individual verses: you’ll have to scroll down). Filthiness results in spiritual death, which basically means separation from God, or separation from righteousness (2 Nephi 9:12).
quote: We are technically all spiritually dead on Earth, because we are separated from God, but this separation is only temporary, and isn’t actually complete (because we can feel the Spirit and get revelations, etc.). But, spiritual death is also encountered two more times. Note that, in the verse quoted above, spiritual death is equated with hell, which we have already explained is in the spirit world, before Judgment. The other time that spiritual death is encountered is when it is made permanent for the Sons of Perdition, as Michamus explained earlier. ----- Okay, none of that was really new, but it was important background. What is new is the issue of culpability for the torment and suffering we feel. The prophet Joseph Smith:
quote: Looks like I found the brimstone for you! The fire and brimstone is, as Michamus and I have been saying, of our own making. It is, quite literally, our own sense of guilt and failure that torments us. ----- It is a generally-accepted tenet of Mormonism that God is subject to the same eternal law of justice that we are.
Alma 42:13:
quote:Bascially, God cannot undermine justice, which requires punishment to be enacted. Now, there are two ways of looking at this:
-----
Phage, post #82, writes: Except of course that I am quoting LDS doctrine from official sources to back up my arguments. Actually, technically, you didn’t. The very first line, above the title of the article you quoted---What is the meaning of the Book of Mormon scriptures on eternal hell for the wicked?:
quote: The disclaimer, written by Daniel Ludlow, attached to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:
quote: Your other sources (which were good, official sources) mentioned punishment, which I gave a good explanation for above. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, ICANT.
ICANT writes: When I point my finger at my congregation I remind them I have 3 pointing back at me. Did I miss something somewhere? ICANT, you're awesome. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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