Pick and Choose Fundamentalism

Well Peg, despite nearly 2000 years of close scrutiny by Christian scholars not a single prophecy has been verified, strange one that.How many people would you reckon have tried to verify a prophecy, a few million perhaps? And not a single one has done so, I know what thpse stats point to.

Removed because inadvertant duplication.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Because you will justify anything in order to keep your faith even the rape, enslavement and murder of little children and infants. It is sick and perverse. So it is ok to beat someone up as long as they able to get up two days later? According to God slavery is not only ok it is commanded as shown here: If that is not a commandement I don't know what one is than. So evidently God encourages and commands chattel slavery just not among the Isrealites themselves.And if you beat up your slave as long as he or she can get up after two days and work no charges are pressed.So if God condones slavery (even in the NT slavery is condoned and never condemned or criticized much less abolished) why was slavery back in the 1700 and 1800s in America wrong? Why the push for equal rights? According to the Bible the Confederate South was correct in there upholding the practice of slavery. In fact, they specifically used these passages in the Bible to defend their "right" to practice slavery as shown here: Oh you mean these verses? The Israelite men hid, kidnapped more women and carried them off to their camps. What do you think they did with them? Square dance? You ignore the other passages I presented about rape and pick the one about selling people as sex slaves. What do you think "If she does not please the master" means, putting on a juggling act?So it is ok to sell people as sex slaves? Even children and your own daughter.Oh, like these rights?
1. The right to only be let free if her owner/husband does not provide food and shelter. Wow, even most sex slaves get the basic neccessities of life.
2. Zero say in when and where she can go or who she can marry.
3. The right to be beaten to an inch of her life as long as she can get up two days later.What a great example for abused and battered women and children around the world. So as long as these Israelites later "married" the virgin women and girls that isn't rape. Why would they kill the non-virgin women and keep the virgin ones? So I guess if molester kidnapped your 16 year old daughter, forced her to "marry" him and then forced her to have sex with him, that is not rape. My point is why should the women be stoned alive along with her rapist? Why do we not do this in today's society?Besides according to the following scripture it is ok to rape a girl as long as you pay the girl's father 50 sheckles and marry her for inconveniencing him: The girl does not even get a choice in this, either to marry, leave or divorce the rapist. What sick fuck makes the rape victim marry the rapist? Women according to the Hebrew god (and allah) are not considered anything more than property (chattel). Again forcible rape is condoned here. Or disagree with the definition of rape: any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.Being a Sexual Assault Victim Intervention (SAVI) advocate for the Navy myself, I find your tollerance and outright condonense of these acts vile, evil and outright disgusting.Evidently this is ok to you:Stoning: Bloody slaughter of innocent children: Torture & slavery: Child sex slaves: Murdering young innocent children: (BTW, do not even bring up the topic of abortion because I am anti-abortion as a means of birth control except to save the life of the mother, incest, rape, etc)Why am I showing the pictures? Because I am trying to make a poignant, unequivocal point: If it [slavery/rape/child abuse/etc] is not ok now or back in the 1800s why is it ok, condoned and commanded by your god 2000 years ago.At any time he could have said it was wrong and commanded its abolition. At any time. Why didn't he? (I have my own opinion why, namely that this entity does not exist but would like to hear your answer).Do you have children? Do you show your children these aweful passages in which your Hebrew god not only condones and allows these things to happen but undeniably and unequivocally COMMANDS it.Again, just choose to ignore it and justify away and brain wash yourself that its ok. That is why these injustice, inhumane practices continue to this day. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : Correct spelling & grammer

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Defending one's country and the outright bloody slaughter/ ethnicide/infanticide for expansionist purposes are two different things. Take it from someone who has served in the defense of his country for the last 16 years of his life.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

edited for being off topicEdited by themasterdebator, : No reason given.

Most likely according to virtually all Atheists, Agnostics, Deists & a large number of moderate Theists. The point is that there is no evidence, other than the hearsay evidence from scripture, and since the positive evidence as to who and when the various books of scripture were written, gives even less a real point of any prophesies as having been fulfilled. Edited by bluescat48, : typo

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

I get how you might be uncomfortable with it but face it, the analogy fits perfectly.In that post I also questioned your ability to employ the process of thought.
Are you attempting to prove the validity of my questions? Certainly, however foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Perhaps not, but accepting responsability for your choices does. What?Insert red hot poker analogy here.I see where the head smashing the monitor thing comes from. It must be frustrating to be so confused.Again, observing someone making a choice is not the same thing as making the choice for them. Where do you come up with these little gems?
Do you really THINK that foreknoweldge and predestination are the same thing? Cause your entire argument reeks of either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty.
I hope it's just ignorance. I'm sure a quick, independant survey of those in your life would, in fact, reveal a great deal of offences that you could deny responsability for. Um, cause your human. Well, to start with, the things you write.
For example: You expend a great deal of effort attempting to establish that the observer is responsible for the actions of the observed.That dog don't hunt. Ya, it's gotta be difficult to maintain the illusion that your arguments have substance.

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The years tell what the days never knew.

DA, you still doubt peg is a sociopath? The more posts she makes, the more convinced I am that she has no conscience and will readily commit murder, rape, genocide, and other horrendous crimes without remorse simply because she is incapable of telling the difference between right and wrong.

She is either a functional sociopath (meaning she minimally conforms to the the warped moral standards dictated by her religion in order to get by, but in reality has no cognizance of societal standards of right and wrong) or she has a severe case of moral compartimantilization in which she abides by one set of rules and standards in the real world and a different set when talking about her faith in the Bible. Trying to see the best in people I would hope for the latter but the end result is the same, a lack of rationality and critical thinking and self-righteous condoning of religious double-standards.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

I understand you seem to think people who go to hell have made a choice to do so, and while this may be true. They are not the only ones to blame. The one who brought them into existence knowing they will go to hell is also to blame. Nobody chooses to exist or chooses to have certain urges which drive them to that action. God is the only one who does that. God brings me into the world knowing I will go to hell. I had no choice in that matter.

I am inclined to go for the second view because I think many Christians do this. They compartmentalize different parts of the Bible based on what they think is important. The New Testament is generally heavily emphasized, with the Old Testament having much less weight, and large parts of the old testament never being mentioned(My church, for instance, while using a broad range of NT gospel readings, was very selective on the Old Testament, many of the stories such as these are never mentioned) and when I went to Catholic School, these sort of verses were ignored.I think this is what Peg is doing. She is placing heaving emphasis on parts of the Bible which show God as merciful and just, and placing minimal importance on the parts that show God ordering the murder of children and condoning slavery and rape. Note that when she encounters an action not even she can justify(the murder of children even though she did try, she admitted she did not have an answer later on), she still refuses to admit it is wrong and instead decides there is some magical answer that would make it okay.Peg: There isn't, as a perfect being, God is not just going to make a "good" choice, he would make the best possible choice. And the best possible choice would involve protecting the lives of innocent children.

Hill Billy writes:

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Certainly, however foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

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Because you are equivocating. Specifically, you are conflating "foreknowledge" of a conditional with "foreknowledge" of an actual.That is, I know that "if" one applies great heat to one's body, it will burn. This is extrapolation based upon past experience and might conceivably be considered "foreknowledge."But that is very different from the "foreknowledge" involved in knowing that you, personally, are going to do it at precisely 6:47 pm local time on January 12th, 2010.With regard to this topic, the common meaning of "foreknowledge" is of the latter type, not the former. It is akin to the magician asking you to "pick a card, any card." While it certainly seems a random choice for you, the magician is actually "forcing" you (that is the term used) to choose a specific card.If I know that a particular action is definitively going to take place without possibility for error, how can that action not take place?No, this is not "foreknowledge" that "if" you apply great heat to your body that you'll get burned. I mean the "foreknowlege" that you, personally, are going to do it at precisely 6:47 pm local time on January 12th, 2010, no possibility for error.How do you avoid such an action if there is no way my knowledge can be wrong? This type of "foreknowledge" is precisely "predestination."Please let us not be disingenuous and equivocate over what is meant by "foreknowledge."

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You expend a great deal of effort attempting to establish that the observer is responsible for the actions of the observed.

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Huh? If I create an object that I know (due to my "foreknowledge" as described above) is going to fail catastrophically, how am I not responsible for that failure? I created it. Indeed, if I had nothing to do with the scenario by which the catastrophic failure is going to happen, then I have no responsibility no matter how much foreknowledge I have. But if I created the entire scenario by which the failure is going to take place, then how am I not completely responsible?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

you assume they raped them because it fits with your warped view of God.
The account says they made them their 'WIVES' You did not mention one scripture that command the men to rape anyone. The accounts were all talking about slaves and making the captive women, wives.In the culture of the day, slavery was a normal everyday event. Slaves in those days were much like hired workers except that the slave was considered to legally belong to the owner. Marriage imposed the same 'ownership' rights upon a woman to her husband. And the owner of the slaves were required to provide materially for the slaves. Some people would even choose to become someones slave in order to repay a debt that he could not afford to pay. It has never been ok and God never said it was ok.He has been putting up with all that humans do, but he has never condoned it. He has allowed us to use our free will and we have abused it.
His laws to love your neighbor should have been enough to know that all acts that are unloving are not acceptable, but it seems that the law to love is too hard for us. In dealing with the Isrealite nation, he gave them his laws but they continually went against them.People are the problem, not God.He has wiped out whole nations of people in the past because of their behavior and cruelty toward each other...the Canaanites for example, Sodom and Gommorrah are another example.Dont ever think that the God of the bible is pleased with what he sees...

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Gen 5:5-6 "he saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6amd he felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart"

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Psalm78:40"How often they would rebel against him in the wilderness,
They would make him feel hurt in the desert!
41And again and again they would put God to the test,
And they pained even the Holy One of Israel"

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Isiah 63:10 "But they themselves rebelled and made his holy spirit feel hurt. He now was changed into an enemy of theirs; he himself warred against them"

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Ps. 11:5 "Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates."

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Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

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We have only ourselves to blame for our behavior, no one else...its our community, our society, our nations that act in such ways. Pretty soon God will be calling everyone to account and the madness will stop. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

i've adequately shown how those scriptures in no way command rape. Slavery was an invention by mankind, not God. He put regulations on it for his people because without regulations of some sort, humans would abuse it...and abuse it they certainly did.I agree that he did command that the canaanites be killed, just as our governments command their armies to kill civilians from enemy nations.

HB, there is so much wrong with you analogy it is difficult to know
where to start.First off, you have you and I, two humans, and a red hot steel rod. How can that possibly be an analogy of one human and one ultimate being? It’s just silly, unless you are saying you are God.Next, we have the fact that you do not know for certain if I am going to insert the steel rod or not, you have no way of knowing. I can work out for myself that it is a bad idea to insert the rod and decide not to.Next, you have not created the situation in which this scenario has arisen, but God has.Next, your interaction with me is also predetermined, it is out of your hands! If you were going to warn me or not actually has nothing to do with you because you are a product of God’s creation the same as I am.Next, If I was going to insert the hot steel rod then I would insert it, there’s nothing you can do about it. You see, even if God was to intervene and stop me inserting the steep rod that would only mean that I was never going to insert the steel rod at all.I could probably find another half dozen or more faults with your analogy, but surely you can see th errors?Let me see if I can break it down to high school language in the hope that you finally get it.As God decides to create the universe and everything in it, He also MUST know every single event that will ever happen in that universe because he is omniscient.Yahweh, the God of the Bible, is portrayed in the Bible as the creator of the universe and everything in it, Yahweh is THE creator.So we have two conditions for the argument.God is omniscient.God created the Universe and everything in it.So, this is a simple argument. Since God is omniscient the He MUST have known before He created the Universe every single thing that would ever happen within it, otherwise he would not be omniscient. He has to know how many snowflakes fell on New York between 6am and 12.21 am on the 6th of December 1967, or how many hairs fell out Napoleon’s head as he brushed his hair on 12th August 1811, or how much tax money Kent Hovind stole, all before He even began to create.
Here’s the rub, so pay attention. Although it is perfectly possible (although not certain) that God has created many different alternatives that an individual could do, for example driving down a motorway there are many exits we could take, God knew previous to creating the Universe exactly which motorway exit that individual would take. To make it clearer, although God may have created many alternatives for that individual that means that not only would God know what that individual was going to do, He also knew what that individual would not be doing. God has set all the parameters for every event in His creation, He has intentionally created the situation which predetermined the exit off the motorway that individual would take.Thus, God has guaranteed, by His act of creation, exactly what I will be doing every moment of my life. The only way that you can defeat this argument is to reject one of the two premises, feel free to do so. I don’t think I need to employ too much thought if you keep these analogies coming.I also hope you notice that it just isnt me that is finding problems with your analogy? It’s not difficult to understand, I can only assume that you don’t realise that YOUR foreknowledge and God’s foreknowledge are NOT the same. I’ve never been one for not accepting the consequences of my choices, I have broad shoulders bud. As we have seen, the poker analogy is severly flawed. I’m not confused in the slightest.The head smashing comes from talking to fundies that think snakes can talk, donkeys can talk, the universe is 6000 years old, humans could once live to nearly 1000 years of age, Jesus was the messiah, etc, when it is obvious that none of these are true. As far as God and creation goes though it does. Logic, and reading the Bible.Do you think everyone is going to go to heaven? As far as God is concerned it is obvious that they are. He knows before He creates what the choices will be, what is so difficult for you to understand? Are these the only two options? It’s neither. What makes you so sure of this when you don’t even know me? What is your evidence for this assumption? Okay, another wee look at your logic.A. Why do I need to ask for forgiveness?
B. Because you are human.Conclusion, all humans need to ask for forgiveness.Now we need to test the validity of your argument.Strange thing is, it seems that you have provided an argument elsewhere that makes this conclusion invalid.You have stated that children are exempt from all this, so here’s another one of your arguments:A. All humans need to ask for forgiveness
B. Children do not need to ask for forgivenessConclusion, children are not human! (I actually know a trainee teacher who would agree with you!)Critical thinking is not your strong point is it? The creator IS responsible though. He has predetermined the situations that govern your choices. Yahweh is resposible for creating evil, even the Bible tells us that, why did He even have to do that? It’s more to do with the balance of time versus the value of the exchange.