Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,393 Year: 3,650/9,624 Month: 521/974 Week: 134/276 Day: 8/23 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Sin
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 185 (515436)
07-17-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Blue Jay
07-17-2009 8:34 PM


Re: Telestial Kingdom
Bluejay writes:
You didn’t know that eternal and endless had a non-conventional meaning in the scriptures when you posted your argument, and, consequently, your argument was wrong.
1000 years is "endless"? You mentioned that it obviously wasn't "eternal" and I ignored it, because it didn't address anything I had claimed at all. I never claimed that Mormons were tormented endlessly, I said they were tormented. Once you seemingly conflated the prison with the Telestial Kingdom I pointed out that I didn't think you were correct in doing so, since it would imply that the torment was eternal. This is because I *clearly* understood that it was NOT!
Bluejay writes:
Religious texts can say, wrath of God, when neither God nor anybody’s temper is involved, and still be teaching a correct principle.
Right, ok. The words are irrelevant, it is whatever you say it says. Would this be because you are... special?
Bluejay writes:
Mormons believe that the torment and suffering we will feel is the direct result of our own actions, not something that God does to us.
What about:
LDS Website writes:
"Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory."
LDS.org
quote:
And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end. (2 Ne. 9:15—16; see also Rev. 22:11.)
What is the meaning of the Book of Mormon scriptures on eternal hell for the wicked? writes:
"Among those at death who are assigned to hell are the heirs of the telestial kingdom and the sons of perdition. These spirits will remain in hell, or spirit prison, suffering the wrath of Almighty God until the millennial reign is over. (See D&C 76:106.)"
- H. Donl Peterson, professor of Ancient Scripture, Brigham Young University.
LDS.org
Encyclopedia of Mormonism/edited by Daniel H. Ludlow. writes:
The scriptures state that God sends cursings, judgments, and destruction upon the unbelieving and the rebellious, including all who reject the Savior or his prophets and are not willing to confess his hand in all things (D&C 1:6-13;59:21;63:6;88:85;104:8;124:48, 52; Moses 7:1)
Encyclopedia of Mormonism
I think it is very clear that the Mormon concept of God punishes people for 1000 years, based on their actions. It isn't "nature" doing it, it is God.
Feel free to cite your sources as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Blue Jay, posted 07-17-2009 8:34 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 185 (515525)
07-18-2009 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Michamus
07-18-2009 2:04 PM


Re: What is sin?
Michamus writes:
Perhaps it is poetic language, just as it is when mentioning what occurs when "prompted by the spirit". I would imagine the suffering of eternal fire would be more a statement of their extreme sorrow at where their actions have led them.
I would not dispute that your imagination is vivid.
Michamus writes:
I highly doubt you are really that dim though, and this is merely your feeble attempt at providing yet another straw-man argument.
Wouldn't accusing someone of presenting a straw man argument before they have presented one be, in and of itself, a straw man argument?
Michamus writes:
You have had to resort to this method of "debate" with bluejay from the very beginning, due to your OBVIOUS misinformation on LDS Doctrine.
Except of course that I am quoting LDS doctrine from official sources to back up my arguments.
Michamus writes:
So to sum this up. You messed up, refused to admit it, and are now trying to point the blame elsewhere... Given your history on such actions, I see no point in further discussion with you, as it will only continue in a downward trend.
Phage0070 writes:
Honestly, I don't know what else you can try other than to accuse me of unforgivable rudeness and being generally impossible to deal with. Then you can refuse to respond and make it out to be my fault.
Check. Maybe I should write a book of prophecy.
Edited by Phage0070, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 2:04 PM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 8:34 PM Phage0070 has not replied
 Message 85 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 8:36 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 185 (515547)
07-18-2009 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Michamus
07-18-2009 8:36 PM


Re: What is sin?
Michamus writes:
Not really a prophecy if you prophesied about the wrong person, now is it?
That never stopped any of the prophets I have heard of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Michamus, posted 07-18-2009 8:36 PM Michamus has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 185 (515646)
07-20-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Blue Jay
07-19-2009 5:14 PM


Re: What is sin?
quote:
A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled 1938 by Joseph Fielding Smith
Aha, there we go. That would have shorted discussion considerably had it been presented earlier.
This does bring up an odd thought; there are several sections in the Doctrine and Covenants where changes are made to the belief system. One example would be baptism, which is in essence a "new" eternal deal. Does this mean God punished people previous to the announcement and it was retconned back, or that people only assumed it read like it meant before? If it is the latter, if it is changed again at some later point would it again be the latter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Blue Jay, posted 07-19-2009 5:14 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Blue Jay, posted 07-20-2009 7:50 AM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 185 (516063)
07-23-2009 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by ICANT
07-22-2009 11:53 AM


Re: Calling for Christians to Respond
ICANT writes:
Yes sin has real consequences.
So then would you ignore "sins" that do not have real consequences? For instance: Suppose I act as equally moral as another Christian (perhaps even more so than some) and yet daily I think "Damn you God, damn you to hell!" and mean it.
What "real consequences" does this have? Who is harmed by it, or what negative physical repercussions can we expect to measure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ICANT, posted 07-22-2009 11:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 6:29 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 185 (516172)
07-23-2009 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
07-23-2009 6:29 PM


Re: Sin
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
Mark 3:29, NIV"
I appears that you consider the Bible to be important and your god to be real, so it would follow that you consider this to be a sin. As I don't believe in God, I don't believe that "sin" exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 6:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 7:20 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 185 (516182)
07-23-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
07-23-2009 7:20 PM


Re: Sin
ICANT writes:
Does your belief make it a fact that they don't exist?
Of course not, I don't believe they don't exist because there is a complete lack of evidence, and a high likelihood of their non-existence. I, as opposed to others, have no confusion over the order in that regard.
ICANT writes:
BTW that is when you commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Ok, fine. Modify the statement to "Damn the Holy Spirit, damn it to Hell!" What real-world impact does that have if it is a sin? Don't try to wriggle out of this question.
ICANT writes:
You do know I believe in a God so I will warn you about that one, but you go ahead and do whatever your little mind decides to do.
Then you also know I don't care what your crazy little sect believes is or isn't God, or what will happen if I think ill of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 7:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 10:47 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 185 (516226)
07-24-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ICANT
07-23-2009 10:47 PM


Re: Sin
ICANT writes:
Why do atheist like yourself spend so much of your life argueing about something you do not believe exists.
It is a combination of a desire to help others, and a desire to correct wrongs in the world. So much waste and hardship is present in the world caused by religion, by belief in imaginary things, it is amazing. I argue because I truly believe you and your kind are holding back the development of humanity through willful ignorance.
ICANT writes:
There is only one unpardonable sin
Then point it out why don't you? I'm not going to play "20 Questions" to find out what every crackpot decides to imagine today.
ICANT writes:
I will remind you of this statement at some point in your future.
Well that is rather vague.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 10:47 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 6:20 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 185 (516383)
07-24-2009 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by ICANT
07-24-2009 6:20 PM


Re: Sin
ICANT writes:
I have to you. It is found in John 3:18.
Then tell me why it requires a real, physical event that affect other people in order for it to be a sin? What is that real, physical event?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 6:20 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:13 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 185 (516390)
07-24-2009 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Rahvin
07-24-2009 7:13 PM


Re: Sin
Rahvin writes:
...I don't see where ICANT has ever made such a claim. I think you may be attacking a strawman.
ICANT writes:
Sin (bad things) does have real consequences.
...
Yes sin has real consequences.
- Message 114
It is just buried under several posts of "Whaat? I don't know what you are talking about."
Rahvin writes:
The idea that a sin must be a physical act that has a specifically detrimental effect on other people is not the Christian concept of sin.
No, I am asking what real consequence the specific act of unforgivable sin will have. I don't think that ICANT will be able to provide a real consequence, rather he/she will provide an imaginary one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:13 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:29 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024